Handed yet another "F-you" at the dog show with Kiri today

[draggar]

Another day, another AKC dog show, another judge telling us "F-you" with our German girl.

Normally (99.999%), when a judge is placing the dogs, they'll take their picks and move them to the front of the line. They'll take#1, move the to the front, #2, move them to the second spot and so on.

My wife, who was showing Kiri, was in the front of the line (she had the lowest number) and after they went around and the judge went over them, the judge told my wife to go to the end of the line.

Sure, you can say the end result was the same but this was the judge saying "I want you to be sure you understand that you are dead last". She then arranged the other dogs and gave out the ribbons.

My wife may pull Kiri from the show tomorrow and we're not going to show her AKC anymore. It's sad, really. The other German shepherds (all American lines) had their asses dragging on the ground when they moved around the ring. Two were afraid of the judge (even though the standard says "must show confidence"). One was paler than an albino (OK, that was sarcasm). One even snarked at another dog while in the ring (it should have been excused then and there).

It's sad, really. German line dogs do well in working (most American line shepherds can't work), do well in every other venue, are even highly in demand for protection, police, and pets, yet the AKC (well, blame it on the oxymoron named "German Shepherd Dog Club of America - Working Dog Association) will quickly thumb their noses at these great examples of what the breed should be.

[BookstoreEscapee]

One was paler than an albino (OK, that was sarcasm).

Hey, I'm part German and I'm paler than an albino!!
Actually, I'm more like an albino with a tan...

One even snarked at another dog while in the ring (it should have been excused then and there).

I didn't know dogs could be snarky...outside of ihasahotdog.com, anyway...

[draggar]

A "snark" is when one dog disagreed with another and it gives a very toothy growl and bark.

[One-Fang]

From a complete outsider's perspective ...

You obviously have a very strong idea of what a GS should be. So do the AKC. It's clear they don't mesh. Who wins?

You - a dog owner and shower.

Or the AKC - a national(?) association set up specifically for the purpose of defining and judging dogs in breeds.

I'm not saying maybe they couldn't stand to learn what a dog should be, but it does appear that maybe the issue is that GS's in the US are not what you expect a GS to be, rather than that the AKC doesn't know a good example from a bad one?

[Fire_on_High]

American lines have ruinous hip issues...the "desired" conformation on the hindquarters should more rightly be called a deformity! German lines don't have such issues which makes them far more capable working animals.

[Nyoibo]

It also doesn't help when they breed only for coat colour and pattern, and ignore other defects that should be kept out of the gene pool, happens with horses too it's decidedly frustrating.

[draggar]

From a complete outsider's perspective ...

You obviously have a very strong idea of what a GS should be. So do the AKC. It's clear they don't mesh. Who wins?

You - a dog owner and shower.

Or the AKC - a national(?) association set up specifically for the purpose of defining and judging dogs in breeds.

I'm not saying maybe they couldn't stand to learn what a dog should be, but it does appear that maybe the issue is that GS's in the US are not what you expect a GS to be, rather than that the AKC doesn't know a good example from a bad one?

The AKC (AMERICAN Kennel Club) gets, and is supposed to uphold the standard set by the GSDCA-WDA (German Shepherd Dog Club of America - Working Dog Association).

From http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/ :

General Appearance
The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex

All of the American lined dogs I see do not look strong. Most look scrawny and (for the lack of a better term) boring. Their bodies are not curved at all, angulated to the point that many run around the ring with their rear ends just inches above the ground. Very few even look noble when in the ring (but I will admit, Kiri is rather boyish looking).

Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

Now, I've seen GROUP placements (above all of the herding dogs - not just German shepherds) to GSDs that were afraid of the judge - some even backing up when the judge approaches them. Most have their tails tucked between their legs when they're being shown.

Gait
A German Shepherd Dog is a trotting dog, and its structure has been developed to meet the requirements of its work. General Impression-- The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. At a walk it covers a great deal of ground, with long stride of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot the dog covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily, with coordination and balance so that the gait appears to be the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation. The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful forward thrust which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow-through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crabwise with the dog’s body sideways out of the normal straight line.

Most of the American lined dogs look like they need to work just to get around the ring, many even seem tired after being shown.

American line breeders, the AKC, and GSDCA-WDA seem to have forgotten that they are German SHEPHERD dogs. Whenever we go to Sieger shows, UKC shows, even working shows (herding, schutzhund etc.) we see very few American line dogs there and they never win anything. If American dogs are so great, how come they never do well under German and European style shows? How come they never do well in working (other than obedience). How come the police and military almost never use American line dogs (including a lot of malinois)?

Plus, it's not us who think we know more about the AKC & GSDCA-WDA. We go by the German standards (you'd think the Germans would know more about the German shepherds than the Americans?).

Take a look at the first official German Shepherd (bred by Max Von Stephanitz):
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1208.html

He looks nothing like a GSD today, in fact, I'm willing to bet that's a malinois. You'll see that he's very square and the back is horizontal - allowing him to be able to work well. You notice NONE are "stacked" like you see them today and you see this consistency until the dawn of WWII - starting in the very late 20s and into the mid 30s when they start to get modern day colorings (tan / red with a black saddle). Now, here's the kicker.

There was a lot of anti-German feelings in the US during WWII, obvious, which is why they stopped calling them German Shepherds and started to call them Alsatians (which went out of common use in the late 40s into the 50s but some areas still call them Alsatians). The Americans started to breed their own. They still used German lines until the final wedge was put into the breed, his name was Lance of Fran-Jo.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/...ee/402962.html

The link shows 96 in his progeny but this is one hell of an underestimate (you'll notice that many only list 1-3 puppies in the litter when the average GSD litter is 5-10). Lance was the most studded dog ever. His breeding in the US was rampant, there is no official number at how many litters and puppies he sired but he was used, and over used and when he died (at the young age of 10) his off-spring were severely used.

He started the "American lined" German shepherd and people stopped using German dogs for their breedings. 4 years after his death the GSDCA submitted their application with the AKC and set their own standard in 1978. As time went on the breed drifted away from the German standard (SV) and went along their own line which is why there is such a distinct different between American lined shepherds and German lined shepherds (which is why many people care calling for the breed to be split, too, into "American shepherds" (American lines) and "German Shepherds" (German lines).

I highly recommend Fred Lanting's "The Total German Shepherd Dog". (http://www.amazon.com/Total-German-S...7126478&sr=8-2 ). (Your local library may have a copy - I know the book is expensive). Fred used to be an AKC judge and tried to judge by the standard. He'd put a rookie puppy up over a champion because the champion was crap. It got to the point that people would bus in people just to "boo" him due to his judging and he got kicked out (while he was quitting) for calling it like it is - he's always been an advocate of German line German shepherds.

You don't just see this in GSDs, too. Many popular foreign breeds are link this. Not many Japanese line Akitas do well in the show ring, not many "English style" collies do well in the show ring. Now, it's not about the dog and what it was bred to do, its more about the name, the lines, and the handler (judges judging by the wrong end of the leash).

American lines have ruinous hip issues...the "desired" conformation on the hindquarters should more rightly be called a deformity! German lines don't have such issues which makes them far more capable working animals.

Yes, many German line German shepherd enthusiasts consider the strict American breeding animal abuse considering the low amount of hip certifications people get with breeding (Kiri did get her hips certified). Many American breeders also skip out on many other important tests, CERF (eyes), even the dam's (mother's) temperament since puppies get most of their temperament from their mothers. A skitzy mother will have skitzy puppies. A fear aggressive mother will have fear aggressive puppies.

It's not just the hips. Temperament is a major issue in American line GSDs now. Someone we know has a female she breeds and breeds but the female is not right in the head, guess what, that is passed down to the puppies. Many German line people, including Germans (who know German shepherds) highly compliment Kiri - her only fault is her boyish looks but Athena and Artemis are both extremely feminine. Looks can be bred in or out, it's the personality that is needed today.

It also doesn't help when they breed only for coat colour and pattern, and ignore other defects that should be kept out of the gene pool, happens with horses too it's decidedly frustrating.

I find it odd that a white coat is considered a disqualification yet the grandfather of the first GSD was a white shepherd. From early on, and possibly even today, breeders will kill off white puppies to hide that gene in their lines, which is sad because they are German shepherds they just have a white coat. There is a white German shepherd club but it is ignored by the GSDCA-WDA and not recognized by the AKC (I don't even think they're in foundation stock service yet). I suspect that the reasoning are political, like so many things in the "professional" (and I use that term loosely) dog world.

[CaroPhoenix]

Back when my family & I lived in Omaha, my mom was friends with a lady whose family had an absolutely gorgeous white German Sherphard. Before that, I never knew German Sherphards could be white. That dog was so gentle and loving. Since then, I've always wanted a white German Shep, but never have been able to find them. I guess I just found out why.

[draggar]

Back when my family & I lived in Omaha, my mom was friends with a lady whose family had an absolutely gorgeous white German Sherphard. Before that, I never knew German Sherphards could be white. That dog was so gentle and loving. Since then, I've always wanted a white German Shep, but never have been able to find them. I guess I just found out why.

http://www.wgsdca.org/

They can help you find a reputable breeder in your area.

[Anriana]

From early on, and possibly even today, breeders will kill off white puppies to hide that gene in their lines

What is wrong with people?

[draggar]

What is wrong with people?

Honestly, I don't know. They allow traditional GSDs, even black GSDs but not white GSDs (it is a disqualification in the AKC show ring). I'm sure it's not done as often as it used to be, but I wouldn't be surprised that it is still done today.

[Becks]

Back in the day, Bella and I had a black GS.

She had a white spot on her throat, but was otherwise completely black.

She was GORGEOUS.

[Greenday]

As I recall from my readings on GSDs, temperament is pretty important. Any signs of weakness drastically should hurt it ratings, and if it is something majoring like backing away from a judge or putting its tail between its legs, they could be disqualified. Also can't be too aggressive, but the dog has to appear to be very confident.

I've seen Kiri's pictures before and she is absolutely beautiful. An amazing example of what GSDs should look like.

[sms001]

its more about the name, the lines, and the handler (judges judging by the wrong end of the leash).

My mom used to show cats and ended up quitting for just this reason - she was unhappy that what were obvious defects in an animal were being supported and bred for because the big names were "refining" the standard toward their poorer throws.

She said the CFA was more inbred than any litter she'd seen though.

I gather you're ditching the AKC for good?

[draggar]

My wife will still show Zorro (our malinois) to support local clubs. He's usually the only malinois so he gets best in breed and then shows for group.

Sometimes he beats other dogs, too.

I've personally abandoned AKC for conformation but we're still going to go with working titlles (and non-AKC working and show titles).