Stop breaking the law!

[Misanthropical]

Where I live there is always and I do mean always notes sent out to remind parents to keep their children out of the parking lot and how dangerous it is for the children to be playing in the parking lot.

Now, my daughter comes across the parking lot to come home or down the parking lot to ride her bike to her friend's house. She is in no way playing in the parking lot or blocking people from coming in or leaving.

So, my neighbor who have no children of their own will come out and take pictures of my daughter walking across the parking lot or riding her bike out of the parking lot. They told my daughter they are going to show the pictures to the property manager. When my daughter told me about this I was beyond pissed off. PA is a two party state, so if someone wants to record or take pictures of someone they have to have express permission from the person they are recording or taking pictures of, since my daughter is a minor she can't give permission, my husband or myself have to give permission and as you can guess we did not give permission.

So, I call the property manager and tell her what is going on. She told me the neighbor hasn't said a word to her about the pictures or children in the parking lot and confirms that what the neighbor is doing is against the law. I tell her that they shouldn't complain about anything since the husband is always outside revving the engine of his motorcycle or car for hours at a time. The property manager tells me she will talk to the neighbor and let them know that they can't be taking pictures of the children and charges will be pressed if they continue to do what they are doing.

I guess the property manager did talk to them, since when I went outside to blow bubbles with the little guy on the front porch the husband would come out and glare at us and go back inside. I just glared back at him.

Since the property manager never saw the pictures I have to wonder what the real purpose of the wife is for taking pictures of a 13 year old girl.

I'm sorry, but if someone messes with my children all bets are off and I will get medieval on them. If they are doing something wrong or causing trouble, just knock on the door at let me know. I will talk to them about it and remind them they are to follow the rules. However, I will not tolerate people messing with my children just for the sake of being an asshole.

[Beckduer]

So, my neighbor who have no children of their own will come out and take pictures of my daughter walking across the parking lot or riding her bike out of the parking lot.

That, right there, just gave me the willies!

[blas]

They are probably just intolerant of children in general and want to find any reason to bitch and whine.

[ArcticChicken]

I'm sorry, but if someone messes with my children all bets are off and I will get medieval on them.

Would you like to borrow my warhammer? I also have a selection of swords, and a bardiche if you'd rather.

[tropicsgoddess]

Sorry, Mis. Your title made me think of this from Liar Liar. Too bad you can't really dish it to those dumbasses that way.

[BookstoreEscapee]

OK, that's just creepy.

[Misanthropical]

I must admit that the thought that the wife and/or the husband is a pedophile did cross my mind. It is the wife that always takes the picture, but it did cross my mind that she might be the pedophile or she gives the photos to her husband.

I have told my daughter that if they take her picture again or even so much as look at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable she is immediately to tell me about it and let me deal with it.

I do think blas87 is on the right track though, since the wife has come out and yelled at my daughter and her friends when they have walked by the neighbor's yard claiming the teens have destroyed things in the yard. Her proof? They were walking by when she noticed something messed up in her yard.

My daughter is not perfect, but she is not evil either and is no way doing even 1/2 of the things the neighbor's wife is yelling at her about nor are her friends.

The neighbor only lives 20 feet away, so it's not like her lazy ass can't walk over here and talk to us if she thinks my daughter is messing up. Of course, she has no proof, so maybe that is why the asshole doesn't come over here.

[Pedersen]

So, my neighbor who have no children of their own will come out and take pictures of my daughter walking across the parking lot or riding her bike out of the parking lot. They told my daughter they are going to show the pictures to the property manager. When my daughter told me about this I was beyond pissed off. PA is a two party state, so if someone wants to record or take pictures of someone they have to have express permission from the person they are recording or taking pictures of, since my daughter is a minor she can't give permission, my husband or myself have to give permission and as you can guess we did not give permission.

Mis, I'm sorry, but this is one time that I'm going to have to call you wrong, unless you can provide a citation of the Pennsylvania code that backs you up. For my own points, I provide this:

United States Telephone Recording Laws: This page summarizes the laws for the two-party notification. Please note that "two-party notification/consent" applies only to recording phone calls and other electronic communications.

Furthermore, I call your attention to "expectation of privacy" notes, which basically state that in public places, you have no expectation of privacy, and anybody can make any recording and/or pictures that they want. Disseminating these things to others may require release forms (especially in the cases of identifiable people in pictures being disseminated to the public), but that is all. In other words, I am perfectly within my rights to photograph anything that I can see from a public vantage point. Yes, this includes photographing the front of your house, and if your window is open, what's happening inside that window.

For further information, please see Attorney Bill Krages's Photographer's Rights page for more details on this.

Now, as I am not intimately familiar with Pennsylvania law, it is possible that I am wrong, and your neighbor is, in fact, breaking the law. However, if your neighbor knows the law, you (and your property manager) look like an ass. It's best not to look that way when dealing with someone like him. Especially since he can then turn that around on you, and go after you for some form of harassment.

Use those same harassment laws to go after him (those I know exist in Pennsylvania, but don't know their extent). But don't use the "illegal picture taking". It might be immoral. It might be creepy. But it is not illegal.

[Misanthropical]

I was going by what the PA police officers told us when we filmed a bunch of people on our front porch and walking away from the house. We were told it's fine to film them while they were on our front porch, but the minute they stepped off the porch it became illegal without their express permission.

Besides, any parent is going to have a huge problem with their child being photographed by a total stranger, no matter if the child is in public or not. I know the police would also wonder why people who have no children are outside shooting pictures of children and only children who are no where near the neighbor's porch or house.

[Pedersen]

I was going by what the PA police officers told us when we filmed a bunch of people on our front porch and walking away from the house. We were told it's fine to film them while they were on our front porch, but the minute they stepped off the porch it became illegal without their express permission.

I have personally dealt with Pennsylvania troopers who were unaware of the law, and I myself taught them what it said. Specifically, back around 1987/1988, I was riding a moped to get around. That moped fell under class 6 licensing at the time. In the driver's manual that you pick up from the DMV when studying for your driver's test it stated that class 1 licensing (normal passenger vehicles) included class 6, but did not include class 5 licensing (motorcycles, the difference was engine size as I recall).

Anyway, I was lost, and missed seeing a sign on a (fortunately) low traffic street, and went the wrong way up a one way. Got pulled over. Gave my license over. The cop gave me a hard time because I only had class 1, and not class 5 (which included class 6) or class 6. I told him the book said class 1 included class 6. He pulled out the copy of the laws that were in his trunk, and read class 6. Didn't mention it. I said that I read that under class 1. Last sentence told him that I was right. He left, and I didn't even get the citation I should have gotten.

Police are human, and can (and do) make mistakes in their understanding of the law. I can find for you numerous reports of photographers being harassed by police while the photographer was doing nothing illegal. It seems like I read a new one at least once a month.

All of this is the long way of saying: Unless they can show you the law regarding this, or you have read it yourself, don't presuppose that they are right. I've given numerous links that show that they are wrong.

The only situation where they could be right (again, unless there is a specific law in Pennsylvania that I am unaware of) is in a recording that used voice. However, since people in a public place have no expectation of privacy, that might trump those particular laws (which deal with electronic communications specifically). I'd check with a lawyer before taking that as gospel advice, though.

Besides, any parent is going to have a huge problem with their child being photographed by a total stranger, no matter if the child is in public or not. I know the police would also wonder why people who have no children are outside shooting pictures of children and only children who are no where near the neighbor's porch or house.

And on those points, I have no issue. Keep in mind, though, that what they are doing may be reprehensible, may be detestable, may even be immoral, but it is almost certainly not illegal.

That comes back to something I've said elsewhere on this forum: Using the "that's illegal!" line on someone who knows that it is not illegal only weakens any argument you have. Don't do it. Nail them for anything else. Check with a local lawyer for what you can hit them for. And don't be surprised if the lawyer says they're doing nothing illegal.

From what you've described, the only laws they might have broken would be harassment. And those can be tough to prove.

[AccountingDrone]

Now, my daughter comes across the parking lot to come home or down the parking lot to ride her bike to her friend's house. She is in no way playing in the parking lot or blocking people from coming in or leaving.
.

so ... how is she supposed to leave or arrive home? Teleport?

[gremcint]

Call the police and report a strange adult taking pictures of your child, it's not a lie at all. The police will probably have a talk with her and it will scare her straight hopefully.

You only have her word for what she is doing with this photos and you don't have to lie or do anything unethical.

Another option is put up fliers that say *neighbour's name* was seen taking pictures of my daughter, if she has taken pictures of your children as well please call me at *phone number*

[Bella_Vixen]

Sorry, Mis. Your title made me think of this from Liar Liar. Too bad you can't really dish it to those dumbasses that way.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[Misanthropical]

I didn't even think of the reference to Liar Liar. I do love that scene!

The property manager must have talked to them, since they haven't bothered my daughter again. I still think the neighbors are beyond creepy and I have told my children to keep their distance when they see them.

[blas]

I am very sorry this is happening to you, Mis.

There are certain people in this world that have no business living in apartments/condos/townhouses/etc. They should own their own homes, preferably out in the middle of nowhere.....but then I suppose decent normal people who live out in the sticks would complain about them too......