A (proposed) new HOA rule - this can't be legal, right?

[MaggieTheCat]

For that matter, what if the guest parks in the person's garage, assuming the person they're visiting has one? Are members of the HOA going to go peering through everyone's garage doors every night/morning to see if there are any unauthorized vehicles in there?

Anyway, yeah, stupid rule is stupid.

[BookstoreEscapee]

I can understand why they want to make sure unauthorized people aren't parking there (or people "unofficially" living there, even); I just can't get behind an HOA collecting every guest's SSN...

[TheSHAD0W]

Just make up a social security number. Are they going to demand the guests show their cards? (Who carries them around anyway?)

[BookstoreEscapee]

Just make up a social security number. Are they going to demand the guests show their cards? (Who carries them around anyway?)

123-45-6789? I wonder if they'd notice...

[AccountingDrone]

So the rule could easily be "Two patrols will be made at random times between 9pm and 5am. Any unknown vehicle parked outside your home or in your driveway at those two times will be counted as an overnight guest at your home unless you file a complaint in advance of the patrol seeing the car for the second time, in which case it will be towed."

Or, you can stop trying to make up ways to get around the rule, and just call the rule a truly douchey rule. Which it is, and I think the rest of us will agree with you on that.

Sorry, this little possible rule is actually NOT in the realm of the HOA. There is no law against congregation UNTIL the municipality enacts one, and a HOA is NOT a MUNICIPALITY. There is no reason for an HOA to restrict short term guests [and if I actually owned the house or condo in question, I will have a guest whether it is for overnight or a month and it is none of their business if the guests vehicle is not in anybody else's spot.] If they tried to control who I had as a guest, or abrogate my constitutional rights or those of my guests, they could expect me to get one of my lawyer buddies to file paperwork for me.

[Eric the Grey]

As I was leaving for work this morning, one of our neighbors started chatting with my mom about our HOA.

I can just see it now. All someone has to do is wait a few months and then break in and steal the collected SSN/DOB's and make a killing ruining a bunch of people's credit with the information...

I know when I was in high-school, we were told that you only gave out your SSN to an employer, but that's long since changed. What a stupid idea. I'd check with a lawyer on the legalities of it however.



Eric the Grey

[BookstoreEscapee]

I know when I was in high-school, we were told that you only gave out your SSN to an employer, but that's long since changed. What a stupid idea. I'd check with a lawyer on the legalities of it however.

When I was in college, our SSN was our student ID number. I never thought much of it at the time, but it was on our ID card. We could also use our ID as a charge card on campus, and during events like Homecoming and stuff, all the clubs would set up tables and they would have a list you could write your name and ID number on to buy whatever it was they were selling (tshirts, etc...), so they could charge it later. If someone were so inclined and had a good memory, they could easily take note of an SSN or two while writing their own info down. (They stopped using SSNs a number of years ago, now.)

[Broomjockey]

or abrogate my constitutional rights

Ooo, big words, but since an HOA is private, and not part of the government, they are not bound by the Constitution. Sorry. And since you are bound by the HOA agreement as part of purchasing a home in the boundaries thereof, with set penalties for violating said agreement, you'd need that lawyer. To keep them from kicking you out of your house.

[AccountingDrone]

Ooo, big words, but since an HOA is private, and not part of the government, they are not bound by the Constitution. Sorry. And since you are bound by the HOA agreement as part of purchasing a home in the boundaries thereof, with set penalties for violating said agreement, you'd need that lawyer. To keep them from kicking you out of your house.

Sorry, the constitution actually does apply to HOA agreements. You can not make any rule which abrogates constitutional rights. The government *theoretically* can't abrogate our constitutional rights, that is why ACLU gets involved in a lot of court cases.

[Pedersen]

Sorry, the constitution actually does apply to HOA agreements. You can not make any rule which abrogates constitutional rights. The government *theoretically* can't abrogate our constitutional rights, that is why ACLU gets involved in a lot of court cases.

Ouch. You seem to believe that. I've been trying various phrases, but can't find an actual court case that says what I am about to tell you: The US Constitution does not apply to individuals. It applies to the government. Examples of ways to see this:

• Cornell Law School mentions, on a page discussing the first amendment, the following:
  
  

  Thus, although the public employer cannot muzzle its employees or penalize them for their expressions and associations to the same extent that a private employer can (the First Amendment, inapplicable to the private employer, is applicable to the public employer),114 the public employer nonetheless has broad leeway in restricting employee speech.

  Take note of the phrase "the First Amendment, inapplicable to the private employer".
• The text of the First Amendment begins as follows:
  
  

  Congress shall make no law

  And it goes on to say absolutely nothing about anybody else.

Really, it does not take a constitutional scholar to sit down and look at this, and realize that the HOA is not bound by the Constitution, since the Constitution is written to define how the government is limited.

Furthermore, your response that: "You can not make any rule which abrogates constitutional rights." is verifiably incorrect. A simple example: "By entering my house, you hereby agree with every political opinion I hold. Failure to agree to this results in your being summarily uninvited, making you a trespasser. I will have you arrested for trespassing." What's more, if you actually try to fight me on this, and hang around after having been informed that you are no longer welcome, the police will back me up and arrest you. You are now trespassing in my home, since you are no longer welcome. As you can see, my example is a quite clear violation of your constitutional rights.

You can enter into damned near any contract and willingly waive your rights. Freedom of speech, association, etc, all can be waived at will. Only a very few things cannot be waived, and those have been declared illegal at other levels (can't enter into a slavery contract, or a contract to have someone shoot you in the head, that sort of thing). By entering into a contract with the HOA, one of the things you agree to do is to follow the rules of the HOA. Once the HOA makes the rule that all SSN's for overnight guests are required, you are now required to collect them. Failure to do so results in fines, with the potential for even losing your home if you fail to pay said fines.

All of this is legal. Go, check with a lawyer. He'll tell you it's despicable, improper, discourteous, and generally a pain in the ass, but it is legal. The only actual loophole would be one that I had forgotten about in my original reply: It used to be the case that, if a given organization did not require the SSN for proper functioning (for instance, banks and the SSA have need of it), the person being requested for their SSN could demand a different identifier be attached to their name that is not their SSN. I have been unable to confirm if this is still the case.

[Broomjockey]

Thank you Pedersen, you put that very nicely. Unless someone can come up with a specific law or article of the constitution that contradicts your statement, I think we've reached the end of what is acceptable for CS discussion, and anything further should be on Fratching, since it'll be talking about how things should be.