Argument: Bringing Out the Dead. Opinions Wanted.

[Jester]

A situation has come up that I want your wise and sage opinions on, but I have to ask a favor first. This board, and the people on it, are for the most part a warm, loving group, and we often side with and defend each other. I need you folks to put that aside right now, and look at the situation at hand as objectively as you can. Don't side with me because I'm me...I want your honest opinions on the situation, as if no CSer were involved. My opinion will be obvious, but I want honest, objective, unprejudiced thoughts and comments on this. I thank you for this.

Now, as many of you know, I am somewhat involved with an old friend back in Phoenix, Nurse Betty. We have had our ups and downs, and there is no question both of us can be very opinionated, very stubborn, and at times very hard to deal with. But last night, I blew my top.

Background: in June, NB lost her father. Technically her stepfather, but he had raised her since she was a wee lass, and while she loves her actual father, she thought of her stepdad as more her dad than she did her father. He lived a long, happy life, and died of natural causes. Naturally, this devastated both NB and her mother, not to mention the rest of the family. For various reasons her mother is organizing stepfather's memorial for later this month. While this may seem odd, the reasons for this are sound, and no one involved disagrees with it.

Last night NB called me rather upset, and more than a little drunk. It seems she feels somewhat neglected in the memorial, and wanted my advice on how to deal with her mother without making mom feel guilty, but still having a bigger part in the memorial. It is not that she wants any glory or the limelight...she just to express how close she was to stepdad, to show her love. No problem. I tried to advise her the best I could. While I had had a few beers, I was not drunk, merely tired from a long day at work. But, things didn't go well, as she did not agree with my proposed plan of action, and things started to get cyclical. She would cry about how she wanted to be involved and why, I would calmly suggest how to go about that, she would object. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Then she stepped over the line.

"You just don't understand." This is one of her favorite emotional protests when she doesn't agree with what I am saying to her. Actually, I do, as I lost my father in 1981, when I was 10. She has, in the past, said it's not the same thing, which it technically isn't, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what it's like to lose a parent.

Last night, after much of the lathering, rinsing, and repeating, she repeated this: "You don't understand. You were TEN. You just don't get it."

I fucking exploded. And let me tell you, when I explode, it's rather nuclear...and rather loud. I was down the street from the bar I had been in, and people outside of it looked up. Suffice it to say I went batshit crazy. Who the FUCK does she think she is, telling me that it's not the same because I was only ten? How DARE she? How fucking DARE she?

Now, I could have pointed out that, no, it isn't the same. I could have pointed out that this was only her stepfather, not her real father, as many people try to say to me when I discuss my (nonbiological) nieces. I didn't. I could have also pointed out that it's not the same since she had her whole life with her father, and I lost mine when I was just a boy. I didn't do that either. I did tell her, in very forceful and loud terms, that she had crossed a line with me, and that she should never, EVER say that shit to me again. It is unacceptable. My pain and my loss are no less nor important than hers, as she was implying. Yes, it has been 28 years, so my loss has been tempered by time. Her wound is still fresh. And that is why I have put up with her "You just don't understand" stuff for so long.

So I exploded, then hung up on her. Then called her back to try to smooth things over once I had cooled slightly. She said it again. I exploded again. Worse. And hung up on her again. She tried to call me back, but I would not take the call. I told her to go to sleep, that it would be better for both of us if she did not talk to me any more that night.

Very few people have ever seen me that angry. And I am STILL angry. Not as hot as I was last night. But I am pissed. Bordering on seething.

So, was I wrong to go off on her? Were her actions even partly justifiable? Can you defend her?

Remember, I am not asking anyone to "side" with me. I can only see my side, as it were. I am too pissed, too involved, too directly in the mix to be able to be my usual objective self and even attempt to see her side any more than I have, as explained above.

Comments? Reactions? Tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm right, I don't care. No one can offend me by their comments, no matter what they are. I just need feedback. I am not one of those people that can't accept when they are wrong. I very much can.

So, my friends....talk to me. Please.

[the_std]

As you know, I find NB to be a little callous and immature at the best of times, and I am not saying this to side with you, but...

She deserved it. Plain and simple. You summed it up perfectly with, "How dare she?!" Yes, she might be grieving and not understand how to deal with these emotions, but it gives her no right to attack your loss in turn.

If it were me, that would have been a relationship-breaker, as it shows a lot of disrespect for you. It looks more and more like she's using you for an emotional crutch, not a boyfriend, as she so frequently gets so hostile when you don't agree with her.

She totally fucking deserved it.

[Broomjockey]

I dunno if she deserved the first one, but she really deserved the second one. You'd made plain at that point your feelings on her saying that, but she did it a second time, like someone who yanks on a dog's tail while it's sleep and gets a hand bit, and then proceeds to do the same thing 30 seconds later when the dog lies down again.

[Midnight12]

Last night NB called me rather upset, and more than a little drunk.

With this in mind it may have escalated things a bit already.

No she did not have the right to say how you don't understand but as she was already upset that may have made it a bit more difficult.

You had a right to be angry as she disregarded your asking her not to treat you as though you have no understanding at all. I think in the end telling her to go to bed and not continue this was a good idea angry or not.
One suggestion give her some time to think time for you to cool down some before engaging this issue again?

[AdminAssistant]

I don't think you were out of line for going off on her and telling her to go to sleep and not talk to you anymore that night. However, understand that she was not in a proper frame of mind. She was drunk, grieving, upset. When both of your heads have cooled completely, try to talk things over.

Honestly, it sounds like she didn't even really want any advice in the first place, she wanted to talk to someone because she's upset over losing her step-father. That's all. She wanted a shoulder, and in those situations, someone saying, "Well, here's the logical thing that you should do" is just maddening. Sometimes, "Yes, dear. I understand. Uh-huh." is the best and only thing to say.

[Aethian]

Actually she's right...you don't understand. But not in the fact that yours was years and hers was not. She had two Fathers, and if I read you right....you had one. She had to choose between which one was her real Dad and which one was just a Dad in name. That is a big thing to decide and from the sounds of it she had a lot of years for the choice to go either way.

Unfortuntly that decision usually comes after the death of the true parent and the one who had to make the decision can no longer tell them in the flesh that they thought of them as their true parent. So she hopes at the memorial to try and make that decision known to a large group who all knew him and hopefully set part of her at ease. But I have a feeling that because alcohol was involved she wasn't thinking as clearly as she could have been so took your suggestions and something that just wasn't enough.

Only she is going to know what will be big enough and she may never reach that. Help her accept the loss of her Father but as far as doing any more suggestions, only be the sounding board not a giver.

[Mikkel]

So, was I wrong to go off on her? Were her actions even partly justifiable? Can you defend her?

No you weren't wrong to let her know that you were hurt, nor to ask for some cool-off time. Just remember that she was drunk and probably lacked sleep. Her grief is newer too. It's a defence of a sort.
I think Aethian and Adminassistant has a point too, the situations are different, aren't they always, and she was probably just looking for a shoulder to cry on.

[Becks]

She was drunk, you were tired, but she crossed the line the second time she said it.

Both of you need time to cool off and (maybe) see if you can discuss this rationally in the future.

[BlaqueKatt]

if anyone ever tried to tell me I didn't understand loss of a loved one-I'd go thermonuclear-I have on occasion, come to think of it.

List of persons close to me I lost in one year at age 16(not in any order):

Best friend from HS(drunk driver)
biological father(cancer)
Biological grandmother(cancer)
Stepfather(anyurism)
Stepgrandmother(heart attack)
stepbrother(suicide-when he found out about stepfather his real dad)
Boyfriend(drug OD)

and yes even at 34 I still feel the loss-if someone were to tell me "it's not the same" or "you don't understand"-I have responded in the past with "no you don't understand, this is not a one-upmanship contest, I may not know exactly what's going through your head simply because I'm not you, but I do understand how it feels to lose someone, my feelings are just as valid as yours."


I seriously think she crossed the line-the first time might be excusable, but the second time knowing how you feel-that crossed into hostile territory IMHO.

[Talon]

I agree with Broomjockey. The second time she crossed the line, all bets were off. The fact that she was drunk and upset mitigates her behaviour, but it is no excuse. As an olive branch you could apologize for losing your composure, but not why.

That said, I'd suggest you beat up a punching bag, light some candles, do whatever you do to discharge some of that thermonuclear rage. You shouldn't make any decisions or talk to her while you're still pissed, and you won't be able to avoid her for long during this time.

But if after everyone's sobered up, she's still hung up on herself and won't apologize to you, kick her to the curb. That's my 2cents.

[NightAngel]

You were both wrong.

She was wrong to say what she did. Period.
There's nothing more to say about it or to justify it. She owes you a sincere apology for it.

You were wrong for allowing what a drunk, grieving person says put you through the roof. That was the moment when you should have simply stated that she had just crossed the line, pissed you off, whatever, and that you were going to hang up and talk to her tomorrow when she was sober and you were calm.

That's where it should have ended- phone off, done. At that point you were both too angry, upset, etc. for a second conversation to have conceivably ended well.

You had already seen that there was going to be no getting through to her right then (later, rinse, repeat... remember?). You undertook an effort in futility and then wondered why your head hurt after hitting the wall with it...

But, you're both only human and shit happens. What happens now between you is more defining of your relationship than the fact you had a hurtful, drunken argument.

[Gravekeeper]

Hmmm....I must go with a little of Broom's column A and a little of Nightangel's column B.

The first time she said it was uncalled for but I would give her the benefit of the doubt due to booze and grief. Though I don't think you should have totally flipped your lid on her. The second time, however, was completely uncalled for and rather.....callous to put it politely. I don't think I would have tolerated it the second time. As by than she would be aware how upset the first time made you.

You don't push the button twice. That goes from stupid to willfully hurtful.

[MaggieTheCat]

I pretty much agree with NightAngel on this one. I'm not trying to make excuses for NB, but there is this too. Everyone here says that the second time she brought the issue up was uncalled for since you already told her she crossed a line. However, she was drunk. Depending on how inebriated she was, it's entirely possible she didn't fully understand how upset you were or didn't even remember what she said that upset you.

I would be pissed in your shoes too, yes, and I can't say that I would be any more calm than you were if I had had the same conversation with my SO. However, looking at it from an outsider's standpoint, I would say, take her comments with a grain of salt. It was late at night, she had been drinking, and she's grieving. That's a bad combination and I'm betting that the same conversation held on different terms would have come out much differently.

[BookstoreEscapee]

I agree you were both in the wrong to some extent, and you should make sure you are both sober when you discuss it again. Seems to me alcohol is not your friend in this relationship...

[Jester]

Update and clarifications....

Today I spent drinking, eating, and watching football, as I often do on Sundays in the fall. I ignored all phone calls from NB, and answered texts from her very sharply, making it clear that I was upset with her, that her comments last night were the reason I was upset with her, and that it would be best for all involved if I did not talk to her today, considering how upset I was. I still have not listened to the voicemails she left me.

I thank everyone here for their opinion, even if I don't agree with all of them. I shall not comment on the opinions expressed her, other than to qualify some points that have been raised or questioned.

She had to choose between which one was her real Dad and which one was just a Dad in name. That is a big thing to decide and from the sounds of it she had a lot of years for the choice to go either way.

No. She was raised by her stepfather. She knew from Day One who her biological father was, and she loved (and loves) him, but to her her True Father was her stepfather, from the earliest memory. She never had to "choose," as it were, as life made the decision for her.

As you know, I find NB to be a little callous and immature at the best of times...

I know. You are not her biggest fan, and you more than almost anyone on CS.com knows how nutty and ridiculous she can be. (For those who haven't figured it out yet, STD and I talk privately, and she is one of my best friends on CS.com.) I value your opinion, darlin', but because of how close you are to me, your opinion is, by definition, biased. That, however, does not mean I don't appreciate it immensely. Thanks, love!

If it were me, that would have been a relationship-breaker...

Interesting. My best friend Neets (who actually knows NB personally, and went to high school with the two of us, though didn't really meet either of us till later on in life) said something very, VERY similar. That this could potentially be a deal breaker. I believer her exact quote was "this is break uppable." Or something like that.

That said, I'd suggest you beat up a punching bag, light some candles, do whatever you do to discharge some of that thermonuclear rage. You shouldn't make any decisions or talk to her while you're still pissed, and you won't be able to avoid her for long during this time.

I did not answer any calls from her, and via text I made it clear to her that I was less than amused with her. I spent the day discharging my anger by watching my favorite sport, football. In a slightly amusing twist on life, my team shocked everyone, including me, by beating her team. I smile.....

You don't push the button twice. That goes from stupid to willfully hurtful.

You are wise, my friend. And I join the legions of those who want to use your comments as a signature.

Though of course I will not.

However, she was drunk. Depending on how inebriated she was, it's entirely possible she didn't fully understand how upset you were or didn't even remember what she said that upset you.

However, looking at it from an outsider's standpoint, I would say, take her comments with a grain of salt. It was late at night, she had been drinking, and she's grieving. That's a bad combination and I'm betting that the same conversation held on different terms would have come out much differently.

She was somewhat inebriated, yes. But based on personal experience, she was NOT drunk. She was able to form coherent thoughts and sentences, and she was not falling over her own words. Having talked to her on numerous occasions where she is incoherent or incomprehensible, I have to tell you that this was not even close to "hammered" for her. It was more slightly inebriated and very, very upset.

This is not to excuse her comments, mind you...merely to clarify what state of mind she was in.