Argument: Bringing Out the Dead. Opinions Wanted.

[BethB]

It may be late to put in my 2cents but I have to wonder why she kept asking for your advice regarding the memorial but turning down each suggestion you had. I know I'd get peeved if someone kept doing that to me. Would her reaction have been different if you told her that you don't know what she can do or it's not your place to to say? Did she really want your advice or a pity party? I don't mean to sound callous but that's my reaction as a newbie.

As for her pain being more than yours, that was way out of line. Sure you could have reacted differently but it sounds like you bottled it up for as long as you could and she just happened to push the red button at that moment. No one should ever say your pain is less than theirs. Ever. yes, she did have her stepfather around for more years than you did. But you will never know how proud your dad would have been at some of your most important milestones. She will never know that kind of loss. The "what ifs" in your life will always be there.

I would have to say she was definetely out of line on this one. She did not have to go down that road regarding your father.Time does not always completely heal the wounds. It only makes them tolerable.

[Eireann]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, especially since I don't know Nurse Betty, and all that I do know is filtered through your perception of her.

It sounds like she's really living off the drama of her stepfather's death. When she called, though she said she wanted help, I think she wanted to be the drama queen and wail about her fate. After all, she made the (in my opinion) unforgivable remark that "it's different for you." It's clear to me that she had to take center stage in this play, and the fact that you lost your father simply means (to her) that you're trying to upstage her, and she can't have any of that.

I keep thinking of the phrase, in vino veritas. I don't know if it was vino or fermentum (yes, I looked up the Latin word for "beer"), but even I, non-drinker that I am, know that drinking lowers the inhibitions, and things that we usually don't say - but which we believe - are often blurted out.

I read something very, VERY important in The Gift of Fear. Gavin de Becker stated that people never act out of character. If Nurse Betty made this remark - twice! - it's not out of character for her. It's just a part of her character you haven't seen before. And I, for one, find it grossly insensitive and self-centered of her not to think that you might still be grieving for the loss of your father, and that your loss was somehow less than hers.

EDITED TO ADD:

I don't think you were out of line to tell her VERY LOUDLY that she was out of line. You didn't fling insults back at her, and you didn't resort to name-calling. And, right now, I think it's best that you not try to talk to her. The fact that she's trying to contact you, and hasn't (to my knowledge) apologized, is a warning signal. Anyone with feelings and common sense would lay low and keep quiet.

[Bella_Vixen]

Anyone with feelings and common sense would lay low and keep quiet apologize.

Fixed it for you.

[Amina516]

I

I read something very, VERY important in The Gift of Fear. Gavin de Becker stated that people never act out of character. If Nurse Betty made this remark - twice! - it's not out of character for her. It's just a part of her character you haven't seen before. And I, for one, find it grossly insensitive and self-centered of her not to think that you might still be grieving for the loss of your father, and that your loss was somehow less than hers.

EDITED TO ADD:

I don't think you were out of line to tell her VERY LOUDLY that she was out of line. You didn't fling insults back at her, and you didn't resort to name-calling. And, right now, I think it's best that you not try to talk to her. The fact that she's trying to contact you, and hasn't (to my knowledge) apologized, is a warning signal. Anyone with feelings and common sense would lay low and keep quiet.

Though im also late in chiming in here, I feel Eireann hit the nail on the head with this.

NB said it TWICE...not even taking in (or listening, or caring possibly?) what you had said the first time. Maybe it was the alcohol? But if it wasnt....what will this say for the future of the two of you?

Im sorry. I hope you can figure out whats best for yourself.

[Jester]

After refusing to take her calls yesterday (I was still pissed as all hell, AND was drinking all day while watching football, so no good could have come of it), I called her tonight, much calmer. She claimed to not know why I was so mad at her. I explained it, very calmly, and while she still didn't see it the same way I did, she did apologize for hurting me, and said that was never her intent. I told her I never thought it was, that she was just so involved in her own situation, she didn't realize how inconsiderate she was being. After she apologized again, sincerely, I told her it was time to put it behind us and move on. As angry as I was, I can also be very forgiving, and I shall move on....though of course if something like this happens again, alarm bells shall go off. Forgiving and forgetting are not the same thing, after all.

[Red_Dazes]

After she apologized again, sincerely, I told her it was time to put it behind us and move on. As angry as I was, I can also be very forgiving, and I shall move on....though of course if something like this happens again, alarm bells shall go off. Forgiving and forgetting are not the same thing, after all.

I'm a bit late in adding my 2 cents.... but I will say I am happy you are trying to make peace... but it is super hard to forget a hurt like that.

I honestly can see both sides of this. She called needing an ear to listen to HER problems... not necessarily solve them. The Beau and I come to this im-pass quite often, cause he likes to help me fix things when I just need him to listen to them while I solve it. And while it was out of line I can see where "You don't understand" comes into play... because honestly every loss IS different. One of the things that made me want to punch more people in the face when my father died... even more than those who just said "I'm SOOO sorry" were the people who would say "I understand your pain".... because really. No you fucking don't. You understand what it is like to Lose someone close to you.... but you don't understand how SHE is feeling.... this is what it comes down to.

HOWEVER. She was way out of line. The first time you could have handled it WAY better. But you were tired and out of sorts. But the second time was out of line. She KNEW it bothered you and she did it anyways. To me this would be a perfectly acceptable time to blow up.... cause I would have done so.

...I think what it comes down to is you both are thinking of "Understanding" in a different way. It seems like you are trying to connect though the feeling of losing a father...which really sucks no matter what.... but she is stating HER personal loss... no two people experience grief or loss the same... in the end there may not be a good way around it... just put the past behind you. ((i mean the phone call)) and try to patch up as best you can. Realizing she is very fragile right now, and will take things MUCH worse than you mean them to be taken....


*cough* sorry for the length.... I shut up now.

[Jester]

I can see where "You don't understand" comes into play... because honestly every loss IS different.

I too can understand that. And I know I can't understand exactly what she is going through. And that's fine. What was not fine was her downplaying what I went through when my father died, her implication that her grief is more valid than mine, especially when I did not bring up my situation in the first place. It was a hurtful and inconsiderate thing to say, and I told her as much.

It seems like you are trying to connect though the feeling of losing a father...

But I wasn't. I was trying to help her, console her, calm her....I never mentioned my father. The situations are different (losing a father as a ten year old boy, losing a father as an adult woman), and I realize that. Also, since she has made it clear in the past that she feels the two are so different, I stopped even referencing that. She was basically being very self-centered, and it crossed the line.

it is super hard to forget a hurt like that.

Yeah, but I'm a super guy. I won't forget it in the sense that if it comes up again, it will definitely trigger alarms, but I can put it behind me and move on and forgive her for this without a problem. It is already a non-issue to me, whereas I know she is still agonizing over it. And honestly, that is something that a person in her position should think about a bit longer. Do I like seeing her in pain? No. But we learn from our mistakes, and this is, when it comes down to it, a major learning experience for her.

And hopefully, she can use it to move forward with her mother with the issues she has with her non-involvement in the memorial. Because it might just teach her to broach such a subject a bit more delicately.

I don't know. I'm over the whole thing, myself. Time to move forward, as you said.

[Shards]

Yep, way too late to throw in my 2 cents, but I have made an interesting observation. Humor me, if you would, CS.

I notice that in all your posts about this subject, you reference the offending line as something that has happened with some frequency before this past week, while most CSers here have been pointing to the second time she said it as the major offense, because at that point she was apparently expected to "get" just how bad it was to you.

Do you mean to tell me that she's been saying it so often during your relationship, and you never once pointed out that you did not approve? Jester, I've barely seen you in 6 months, and even at our closest I would hardly have counted myself amongst your close buddies, but even I know that you are both outspoken and stoic. I cannot imagine you not saying a word about it, and even more so, I cannot imagine someone who is supposed to know you better than just about anyone (a girlfriend, note the "just about", not an absolute anyone), not realizing the weight behind it when you do say things, because you are a stoic, generally kind person.

I can understand her point, mind you. I was adopted at birth because both my biological parents wanted so little to do with me that they specifically asked I never even know their names. When I first found out, it crushed me, I still have inferiority issues, but it's something I've lived with my whole life, and knowing nothing probably did ease it slightly from if I had gotten to know them for a year or three and THEN been given away, but that doesn't lessen the burden that is still on me, and if someone implied that it did, I know I wouldn't have your restraint in waiting as long as you did to go off on them.

Sorry for the length, I went off an observation, and ended up on a soapbox. I'll shut up now.

[Plaidman]

Plaidman is too late to offer his opinion. But is happy you two made peace.

[Jester]

Yep, way too late to throw in my 2 cents...

Plaidman is too late to offer his opinion. But is happy you two made peace.

It's never too late to offer opinions, especially when opinions were what was asked for in the first place.

I notice that in all your posts about this subject, you reference the offending line as something that has happened with some frequency before this past week, while most CSers here have been pointing to the second time she said it as the major offense, because at that point she was apparently expected to "get" just how bad it was to you.

Yes and know. She often says "you just don't understand" about a variety of subjects, some of which I do and some of which I don't actually understand.

As far as this particular topic, she has casually said before that our situations were different, and because it was in response to something I said about it and it was not said belligerently, it was easy enough to let it slip by.

However, the night in question, she brought it up when I was not even referencing it, and at the time, I viewed it as almost an attack, and an unprovoked one at that. I may or may not be right about that (hence my request for opinions), but that is how I viewed it at the time. Add to the fact that we were both drinking, and she was being completely unreasonable and repeating the same things over and over and not listening to any advice, merely repeating her complaints....well, I think you can figure out where this went.

As for the second time she said it that night being the "major" offense, well, the other CSers kind of have it right. It's not that she was expected to know how much this pissed me off....it's that I flat out told her, in no uncertain terms, after the first time she said it. It was the equivalent of Mike Tyson being warned about biting Evander Holyfield's ear....and then biting it again. After someone has received a warning about something, if they repeat that action, they should not be surprised if it results in negative consequences.

[TOLady]

Just a question, but do you think that the situation would have escalated as far as it did if the conversation had taken place face to face?

In a long distance relationship I had many years ago, we would be perfectly fine together, but talking on the phone led to many fights. We could work things out fine when we were together, but BOY did things get ugly over the phone.

It’s hard enough building a relationship being in the same city. It’s twice as hard being so far apart. The nuances of facial expressions while talking are completely missing and can lead to many a misunderstanding especially if you’re prone to becoming calmer and quieter as you get angrier and your partner’s not quite used to that part of your personality yet and doesn’t have the visual cues to pick up from.

It’s happened and the situation can’t be undone, of course, but keep in mind that in her state, she may not have realized just how irate you were becoming until you blew up. If she had seen your face, I’m sure she would have realized how affected you were by it and definitely would have stopped after she said it the first time.

That being said – maybe she wouldn’t have.

It’s going to be hard making this relationship work being so far apart, but hopefully you can.

[Aethian]

No. She was raised by her stepfather. She knew from Day One who her biological father was, and she loved (and loves) him, but to her her True Father was her stepfather, from the earliest memory. She never had to "choose," as it were, as life made the decision for her.

Wrong. Life made a certain decision for her but she still has to make that decision for herself internally. And seeing as how we don't know how she feels mentally/internally then there is no way to say for certain who she viewed as her true Father, before this gentleman's death.

[Jester]

Just a question, but do you think that the situation would have escalated as far as it did if the conversation had taken place face to face?

I have no idea, but there is no question that the distance has put a definite strain on the relationship. This may well have been partly due to that.

Wrong. Life made a certain decision for her but she still has to make that decision for herself internally. And seeing as how we don't know how she feels mentally/internally then there is no way to say for certain who she viewed as her true Father, before this gentleman's death.

Actually, I DO know how she feels about it, as she has told me in the past, not only after her Stepfather died, but before he was even sick. From her earliest memories, Stepfather was her Dad, while her father was her father. She was raised by her Mom and Dad (stepfather), and she always thought of him as her true father. I thought I had made that clear, but perhaps I had not.

[strawbabies]

I think it was a mean-spirited, dumbassed thing for her to say. But she is grieving for her dad.

My fiance will tell anyone that I turned into a raving bitch when my mother died. We broke up for a little while about a month later.

But as I adjusted back into normal day-to-day life, I started being myself again. My fiance and I worked things out, and we've been going strong again for nearly two years.

Jester, if you're cool with moving on from this, go for it. But if this behavior becomes a regular occurrence, this may be a side of her personality that you are just learning about that isn't very attractive.

Edited to add: I think your reaction was perfectly justified.