Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Did I deserve this?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    What is it with you and psycho women, Jester? Time to change your cologne or something...

    She was wrong, and if she is happily married, I'll eat my wedding ring. I've had too many divorced friends that started off like that... partying hard, flirting in bars, giving strangers their phone number, then next thing you know....divorced because their hubby didn't make them happy or some other bs reason that they pretty much caused.

    Breathe a sigh of relief that you didn't get tangled in that mess.
    Last edited by r2cagle; 04-12-2010, 06:21 AM.
    Make a list of important things to do today.
    At the top of your list, put 'eat chocolate'
    Now, you'll get at least one thing done today

    Comment


    • #17
      Even less-possessive guys might find your actions reproachable. The fact is, you were hanging out with three married women and bar-hopping. Even if you didn't initiate any flirting and "acted like a gentleman" the fact is that the situation was a whole bag of worms from the get-go. YDI for not noticing how this situation could have ended badly. One day, one of these "overly-possessive guys" you don't have a problem with is gonna go after you.

      Like in a briefing I was given in ethics; even if it's something perfectly legal and lawful, you can still be in the wrong if there is the perception of inpropriety.

      Comment


      • #18
        Quoth r2cagle View Post
        What is it with you and psycho women, Jester?
        I don't wear any cologne. Almost never have. Owned one bottle of it once, that someone bought for me. Took me years to go through it.

        Maybe that's the problem.....maybe it's my natural scent drawing them to me. Hmmmm......

        Quoth r2cagle View Post
        She was wrong, and if she is happily married, I'll eat my wedding ring.
        I never said she was happily married. I said SHE said she was happily married. I personally have no knowledge if she was or wasn't. I do know that from what the trio told me that they were down here together as a little vacation celebrating Birthday Girl's birthday. They are all friends and coworkers of one another, and from what I gathered, fellow troublemakers. Beyond that, I have no idea. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.

        Quoth r2cagle View Post
        Breathe a sigh of relief that you didn't get tangled in that mess.
        Um, duh?

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        Even less-possessive guys might find your actions reproachable.
        Reproachable? Really? Really? Let's review what happened: three married women came into the bar I work at. I served them, talked to them as a bartender does, got off work, and at their invitation, sat and drank with them some more. Then at their invitation, went out to bars with them. I did not hit on any of them, did not make a pass at any of them, did not in any way act inappropriately, although they certainly did....yes, I guess you are right. Some less possessive guys might find my actions reproachable. But I can think of only two reasons: 1. That I didn't bang CB, when I probably could have. 2. That the "less-possessive guys" aren't really that non-possessive. Seriously, what did I do that was reproachable? Hang out and talk? Gee, what a crime. I never put my hands on any of the women in a way that any but a really possessive guy would object to. Never touched any of the fun parts, never touched a leg, don't think I touched them at all other than a friendly hug or a hand on a shoulder or arm, and that last part usually only in a loud bar to get their attention. If anyone's actions were reproachable, it was theirs, for bar-hopping with a strange guy, flirting with all kinds of guys, making out with other guys, flashing other guys, etc.

        I have done things I have felt guilty about in the past, some of them warranting guilt, some not. I feel no guilt about anything I did, and I think I am perfectly warranted in that guilt-free mental state.

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        The fact is, you were hanging out with three married women and bar-hopping.
        If anyone's actions were reporoachable, it was theirs. I am not married. I am not friends with any of their husbands. I have no obligation to anyone not to hang out with them. Depending on their marital situations and/or their husbands' mental and emotional dispositions, they may well have such obligations. Two of them, as I have stated, were engaged in reproachable actions for married women, far beyond friendly or even suggestive flirtations, and not with me.

        I am not always the innocent. But in this case, damn straight I was.

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        Even if you didn't initiate any flirting and "acted like a gentleman" the fact is that the situation was a whole bag of worms from the get-go.
        Only if you are the belief that men and women cannot "just be friends" and have fun together without it turning sexual or romantic. I am not of that belief, and I often hang out with women, single, involved, and/or married. I have no problem with this, nor have I generally had a problem when a girlfriend or fiance of mine has hung out with other guys, married, involved, or single. A relationship is about trust, and I have trusted (most of) the women I have been involved with. And if I thought I couldn't or shouldn't trust them, their shelf life as my girlfriend was short-lived.

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        YDI for not noticing how this situation could have ended badly.
        ANY situation, no matter how innocent, has the potential to end badly. Ask Ronald Goldman.

        I myself have had even more innocent situations than this end badly, through no fault of my own. One that jumps to mind is one night when I was at a bar talking to a couple. We were talking for quite a while, and I was in no way being flirtatious, which for me is rather unusual. The guy had no problem with me, and I made no moves on his wife/girlfriend. (Don't remember what she was to him.) The dude excused himself to the bathroom. The girl and I continued to chat, both still sitting our our bar stools, our positions in general and in relation to each other unchanged from when the guy had been there. But when he returned, I guess he saw "something" that set him off. What it was, I have no idea. Neither did his girl, as she told me after the fact. But for some inexplicable reason, when he came back, he went off, and lunged at me. I was more shocked than anything, trying to figure out what was going on and what had set him off....and trying to defend myself. Luckily for me, this was a bar where I was more well-known than I realized, because the security staff, who I did not recognize but who knew who I was, was on the guy quickly and removed him from me and then form the premises. His wife/girlfriend apologized to me, as confused and befuddled as I was as to what had just happened.

        Any situation can end badly. Does that mean I am supposed to stop being the social animal I am and just talk to people who I know very well, who are single, or who don't pose any possibility of suddenly changing into a bad situation? The only way I could do that would be to stay home and read all the books I have that I have yet to read. And while I love books, sorry, no, I am going to go out, I am going to talk to people, and some of them are going to be female.

        Your argument just doesn't hold water. ANY situation can turn badly. By your logic, I should not even talk to any single women, as they MAY have boyfriends or husbands that they are not telling me about, and thus, that situation can turn sour.

        Sorry, no. I am going to stay true to myself and continue to be social, and not worry about what "could" happen. Sure, bad things "could" happen to me for my actions, some of them forseeable, many of them not. But I am not going to determine how I live my life because of what "could" happen. It's just not the way I am.

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        One day, one of these "overly-possessive guys" you don't have a problem with is gonna go after you.
        And that could happen. And has. So be it. I cannot control, nor will I attempt to, what irrational ultra-possessive guys are going to do. Personally, I think I am in far more danger from driving on Florida roads. But I am not going to stop driving.

        Quoth Hobbs View Post
        Like in a briefing I was given in ethics; even if it's something perfectly legal and lawful, you can still be in the wrong if there is the perception of inpropriety.
        No. You can't still be in the wrong if you have done nothing wrong. You can only be perceived to be in the wrong. By someone whose perception is skewed or faulty. Keep in mind, I am only talking about social situations. In various ethical situations, you are correct. But we are not talking about professional ethics or legalities, we are talking about social interaction. Something that is a very basic part of my life.

        In short: I am not going to run and hide my head in the sand because some schmuck doesn't like the fact that his girl is talking to me.

        I was not at fault. Could there be repercussions? Sure. There always can be, from anything. But I will not feel guilty over something I did not do. And those guys who may (or may not) come after me? Fuck them. Bring 'em on. And yes, in case you're wondering, it has happened. Usually to their regret. Not physically, mind you. But because I am a good talker, and I have simply explained the situation, and shown them the error of their ways. Not saying they didn't get mad at their girlfriends for what happened. But they left me the fuck alone after a simple conversation. Usually because down deep, these guys know how their girls are. That, or they think that their girls are like that, which is what causes all the insecurity in the first place. Them coming after me? No big deal...I'm not really the one causing their anger.

        "But what if one day one doesn't listen, and just comes at you physically?"

        Bring it. If you haven't noticed, I don't really bother with fear much. Unless it's bees. I am scared shitless of bees. So if I ever flirt with a beekeeper's wife unknowingly, I could be in some serious trouble.

        Other than that unlikely possibility? As I said....

        Bring it.




        By the way, Hobbs, thanks. Seriously, thank you. Because of your arguments, I now know with more certainty than before that I was not in any way in the wrong. I appreciate it.

        "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
        Still A Customer."

        Comment


        • #19
          How do you know from my arguments that you were right? Because you're still wrong in my book.

          Your logic is flawed. "Single women who have boyfriends or husbands..." That doesn't sound like a single woman I've ever heard about.

          Your whole bit on being "social" is not the issue; your judgment on who to be social with is. You were NOT innocent because you stayed with them, knowing they were married. Who cares that they were being flirty? That shoulda been a clue to get the hell away from them.
          Last edited by Hobbs; 04-12-2010, 08:41 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Quoth Hobbs View Post
            How do you know from my arguments that you were right? Because you're still wrong in my book.
            I "know" I am right in the same sense that I "know" I was right NOT to make a move on the married woman in question. It is not an empirical thing, but something in internal to me.

            And you are more than welcome to believe I was in the wrong. I respectfully disagree with you on that count, though.

            Quoth Hobbs View Post
            Your logic is flawed. "Single women who have boyfriends or husbands..." That doesn't sound like a single woman I've ever heard about.
            My logic is not flawed, though I may have phrased it badly. Then again, I can't find in my post where I used that particular phrase. If I did, it should have read "married women or single women with boyfriends." Since a woman with a boyfriend is not married and hence single. But I really can't find where I used the phrase "single women you have boyfriends or husbands."

            Quoth Hobbs View Post
            Your whole bit on being "social" is not the issue; your judgment on who to be social with is. You were NOT innocent because you stayed with them, knowing they were married. Who cares that they were being flirty? That shoulda been a clue to get the hell away from them.
            Perhaps by your standards I was making a poor judgment choice by hanging out with married women. But I have friends who are married women, and have hung out with them. I did not see much of a difference here.

            Had I done anything with CB, or allowed anything to happen with her, I could see your argument. I did not, and I did not. I respected her marriage (even if she did not), and my actions were beyond reproach.

            You think my actions were reproachable simply because I socially interacted with married women. I do not. It is simply a matter of disagreeing on what is acceptable and what is not.

            You are free to have your opinion. I shall have mine. And I shall continue to believe that I am correct and that you are not.

            "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
            Still A Customer."

            Comment


            • #21
              Hobbs, I have to post here.

              I also do not understand your arguments. Even when I was with the Clueless Ex, I had male friends, most of them married, with whom he did not always care to interact. He had female friends with whom I usually did not care to interact. Neither of us had any qualms about the other having friends of the opposite sex.

              I still see most of these people, male and female, although he is long gone. Most of them are still married to their spouses, and none has ever to my knowledge objected to those friendships.

              The only female "friend" of his I ever objected to is the one he later left me for. With all the others, his interactions were not such as to make me nervous, or jealous, or whatever other emotions you apparently would be feeling. Only his interactions with her raised suspicion in me, suspicions that were later justified. And she was single when we met her.

              None of my interactions with my male friends ever raised any sort of qualms in him, either, and there was no reason for them to.

              If you and I were together, and you wound up in the situation Jester describes, I would not expect you to flee screaming into the street to avoid making a new friend, just because that friend was a married woman. I would not continue with you if I could not trust you.

              If you and I were together, and *I* wound up in the situation Jester describes, and you chastised me for it as you have been chastising Jester, I would end the relationship. NOT because you had been hanging around with another woman, in the, yes, INNOCENT manner Jester describes, but because I could not be in a relationship with a man who refused to trust me to go out and make new friends without him.

              I don't mean offense; this is just my two cents' worth. Your mileage seems to vary.

              Comment


              • #22
                Quoth Jester View Post
                Maybe that's the problem.....maybe it's my natural scent drawing them to me. Hmmmm......


                Bottle it.

                Eau de Jester.

                The Hai Karate of the 21st Century!


                Mike
                Meow.........

                Comment


                • #23
                  I know I've mentioned it before, but I'm in a long distance relationship, and a good many friends are male. And yes, I go out with them for dinner and/or drinks. My boyfriend works with a lot of married women, and he frequently goes out to lunch with them. It's fine because we trust each other. If you don't have trust, you don't have a relationship.
                  "Even arms dealers need groceries." ~ Ziva David, NCIS

                  Tony: "Everyone's counting on you, just do what you do best."
                  Abby: "Dance?" ~ NCIS

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Quoth Jester View Post
                    IBy your logic, I should not even talk to any single women, as they MAY have boyfriends or husbands that they are not telling me about, and thus, that situation can turn sour.
                    Here's your own words.

                    This isn't a trust issue at all. Y'all are completely twisting my argument to fit into your twisted logic. A gentleman simply does not do those sorts of things with an unescorted lady.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Quoth Hobbs View Post
                      Here's your own words.

                      This isn't a trust issue at all. Y'all are completely twisting my argument to fit into your twisted logic. A gentleman simply does not do those sorts of things with an unescorted lady.
                      so, if i have female friends (as most of my friends are), it's alright for me to spend time with them as long as they're single. am i reading your argument correctly? but as soon as they become involved in a relationship, i should magically forget our friendship unless they're "escorted?" and they should forget about their friends of the opposite sex unless the significant other is around? btw, referring to a woman without her significant other as an "unescorted lady" is pretty condescending. it raises a specter of being owned by their significant others.
                      My Space

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Quoth Hobbs View Post
                        A gentleman simply does not do those sorts of things with an unescorted lady.
                        Oh, EFF that. I do not need nor want an "escort" and to be blunt, it's kinda up to a woman to take care of herself. If I want to go out drinking on a weekend when the BF is not in town, I will either call up a large gaggle of lady friends or my best male friend J. On the rare occasion that I get approached, it's up to me to deal with it.

                        I think your outdated sense of honor is just that....outdated.
                        "Even arms dealers need groceries." ~ Ziva David, NCIS

                        Tony: "Everyone's counting on you, just do what you do best."
                        Abby: "Dance?" ~ NCIS

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Quoth tacohuman View Post
                          so, if i have female friends (as most of my friends are), it's alright for me to spend time with them as long as they're single. am i reading your argument correctly? but as soon as they become involved in a relationship, i should magically forget our friendship unless they're "escorted?" and they should forget about their friends of the opposite sex unless the significant other is around? btw, referring to a woman without her significant other as an "unescorted lady" is pretty condescending. it raises a specter of being owned by their significant others.
                          I wasn't talking about a pre-existing relationship. Believe it or not, I have female friends. We're getting up in years, and a few are already married. That said, their husbands know me and know we've been friends for a while.

                          Jester's instance is hooking up(platonically) with a gaggle of aforementioned women and starting a relationship(friendly-platonic).

                          AdminAssistant, I'd see no problem with you doing that. My honor may be outdated, but at least when I die, I'll have it. Again, y'all are being obtuse and not getting the point of my post.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Quoth Jester View Post
                            Unless it's bees. I am scared shitless of bees. So if I ever flirt with a beekeeper's wife unknowingly, I could be in some serious trouble.
                            If you ever make it out to sou Cali (or I make it out your way), we should hang out. I can keep you safe from errant bees.
                            Quoth Hobbs View Post
                            This isn't a trust issue at all. Y'all are completely twisting my argument to fit into your twisted logic. A gentleman simply does not do those sorts of things with an unescorted lady.
                            I'm sorry, what milennium are we in, again?

                            I'm often an "unescorted lady" as you so quaintly and anachronistically phrase it, and according to you, unless I'm with "my man" as it were, I shouldn't be able to hang out with anyone of the opposite gender.

                            Pardon my French, but fuck that noise.

                            The "point" of your post appears to be that if a woman is in a relationship, then no man she isn't already acquainted with should take her up on an offer of friendship.

                            I'll reiterate; fuck that.

                            If you want to blow off potential friendships because of some antiquated sense of honor dating from a time when women were kept on pedestals to protect their fragile selves, that's your gig, but as you can see from many of the responses here, women have become quite a bit more liberated in the last couple centuries and casual friendships between men and women aren't anything to raise brows any more.

                            ^-.-^
                            Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              You have still disregarded my arguments for your own logic. I didn't say that you couldn't have male acquaintances, just that in Jester's sense, he was towing a very thin line between propriety and inpropriety.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It would appear we can't play nicely.

                                Thread Closed
                                A PSA, if I may, as well as another.

                                Comment

                                Working...