A CS.com cookbook?

[MaggieTheCat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think recipes are subject to copyright.

Okay, I just looked it up:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

Basically, a list of ingredients is not subject to copyright. Descriptions, illustrations, and explanations, are. It doesn't expressly say it on that website, but I do remember reading somewhere that writing out a detailed description of how to put a recipe together can be subject to copyright. For example:

"First mix the butter and sugar together in a large bowl. I prefer to use a large glass bowl with a hand mixer for this. Then crack the eggs one at a time and add to the butter and sugar. Mix for several seconds after each egg, until they are fully incorporated. Then add the vanilla extract; I make my own vanilla, which I think enhances the flavor."

But basic, simple instructions cannot be copyrighted, such as:

"Cream butter and sugar in large bowl. Add eggs one at a time and beat well. Mix in vanilla extract."

[Pedersen]

It depends, heavily, and it also depends on the location involved. For instance, here in the US, a simple list cannot be copyrighted. In order to be protected by copyright, there must be a creative element. This is why phone books have introduced intentional errors in the form of listing people that do not exist. By putting them in, the phone book now has a creative element (creating the names and fake phone numbers), resulting in the phone book now being able to be protected by copyright.

Now, a recipe can mix both elements: A straightforward list of facts (the following ingredients go into this recipe), along with a creative element (Mix them together in this order). As such, a recipe can be protected by copyright. The exact determination will be carried out by a judge and/or jury.

Now, if full history is maintained, then it is possible to simply say "By everything we had, this was an original recipe. We'll remove it right now." and in so doing avoid most (if not all) damages. A good faith effort is maintained. It does not mean problems can not occur, but it does make it easier to reduce their impact.

I like the idea, I really do. I think I'd be willing to help out on the technical side of things to make it happen. I just want to make sure the bad stuff is known up front. After all, if that's as bad as it gets, and everybody still likes it, then problems will be easily handled.

[BookstoreEscapee]

Vinegar Boy Vinaigrette?

perfect!

[MaggieTheCat]

I totally agree Pedersen, and I'm glad you brought the issue up early on so that we can discuss it before too much time and effort is devoted to anything. If someone wants to submit a recipe that they got out of a cookbook (which is copyrighted), could one simply change around the wording and/or order (if it would still make the recipe work) of the instructions to get around copyright? Or, would putting in a clause of, "This recipe was taken from (book) by (author)" help us avoid any problems? Or should we try to avoid recipes that we know are coming from a copyrighted source, such as a printed cookbook?

[Whiskey]

proving copy written recipies is.. hard. a lot of the recipies i cook from are "100 year old recipes from great-great-grandma." I'm sure they exist, copy-written, somewhere but there has to be a certain amount of plausible deniability.

edit: as an example, the recipe for my FAMOUS peanut brittle is from my greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat grandmother. I'm sure someone, somewhere has marked this recipe is theirs. It might be, it might not. A simple disclaimer on Page 1 would probably diffuse all complaints. Also, if its a free-ware (PDF/html) book/website, theres really no recourse since youre not making any money (you can accept donations though, from what i know, IANAL)

[Pedersen]

Whiskey's right. Proving the lineage of anything, especially anything old, is hard. The best that can be done for that, in my (not a lawyer) opinion, is to exercise good faith: Anybody submitting a recipe needs to state where they got it. If it comes from a book which has a current copyright (basically, most things after about 1920), we can't put it in the book. Along with each recipe, we include a little bit about the recipe.

Using Whiskey's example:
I got this peanut brittle recipe from my great-grandmother, and it's to die for. Once you try it out, you'll know why.

And add in the disclaimer: We have done everything we can think of to ensure no copyrights are being violated. We hope they're not, but if they are, let us know, and we'll get it fixed straight away.

One other note on copyright: Two people can express the same idea the same way. As long as they can prove that they came up with the expression on their own, they can have their own copyright, and not be in conflict. It's decidedly uncommon, but (from what I understand) it has happened.

[Jester]

I have quite a few thoughts on this.

Yeah, shocking, I know.

Has anyone ever considered doing a cs.com cookbook?

Depending on how big we wanted to make it, we could put memorable quotes, signatures, or short posts throughout the book as well.

I actually have. Now, if this is a CustomersSuck.com cookbook, as opposed to a subforum, I really believe it should have some stories in it, perhaps related to the recipes, perhaps not, but definitely related to food. Preferably the funnier ones rather than the grosser or more horrific ones.

Would anyone be interested in doing something like this?

I very well might. I might even consider doing a lot of the work involved in editing and publishing it. Assuming we are talking about a cookBOOK, not just a subforum on the site.

Oh, one final note: Unless the book is sold at cost, profits have to go somewhere. A question to answer as early as possible is "Who gets the money?"

If we really think we can sell this, we should try to make a profit. Seriously.

As to where the profits would go, I have three suggestions.

1. CS.com, to help with the cost of the site's upkeep.
2. A worthy charity that feeds homeless, children, the impoverished, veterans, etc. I don't have a particular charity in mind, but there are several such organizations out there that do worthy work like this.
3. Perhaps some of the profits could go to the person who put it together to compensate for their time and effort.

I know the last one sounds self-serving, as above I volunteered to be that person. But I think that whoever does the majority of the work of putting the book together, making it look good, getting it published, and getting it to market should be somewhat compensated if possible, whether it's me, Maggie, or someone else.

If I was the person that did this work, I would also consider putting up the funds to get this thing off the ground. After all, despite what some things may sound like, I really am not that self-serving.

Anyway, the only drawback is that the minimum order for this company is 100 books. Is there enough interest for 100 books? Also, there would have to be someone that had the time to put all this together by compiling the recipes, collecting funds (half has to be paid to the publisher up front), and shipping to members.

The minimum order and upfront payment are what this company requires. Other companies may not have the same requirements. And in this computer age, self-publishing is certainly an alternative possibility.

Also, is there someone here who is artistically inclined and interested in this project, who could maybe come up with some simple art to incorporate? We'd want at least something for the cover, and possibly small images inside the book.

I think the artist that does the CS.com comic strip would be perfect for the artwork.

Or should we try to avoid recipes that we know are coming from a copyrighted source, such as a printed cookbook?

My strongest opinion is reserved for this particular item.

I think if we are putting out an actual CS.com cookbook, with the name of the site in it, ALL recipes in it should be our own original recipes, or those handed down to us by family members. I have some great recipes for salsas, and I got every single one of them online, without changing a thing, so I would never submit one of those as "mine." My chili, my Famous German Stew, my Crianza Salad, my Lobster Lasagne, my Mexican Lasagne....these are all original Jester recipes.

And I think that a CS.com cookbook should have original recipes of CS.com members. To quote Sir Charles, anything else would be uncivilized.

[superhotelworker]

I can help organize it. Give me enough time I could do the OpenOffice or word document too. (Or well try).
And I've got plenty of time to dink around in photoshop. Why not have a mix of art? Everyone has a unique style, though the CS comic idea from Jester would be fun! LOL
And I've got recipes to share!

[NateTheChops]

I think it would be a good idea. I mean, Gordon Ramsay's F-word is basically a show about cooking, but dealing with idiots in the kitchen. Ours could be like that, with recipes and stories of the idiots we have dealt with both in and out of the kitchen.

Perhaps each person who contributes a recipe could contribute an edited version of the stories they post here on CS.com.

And not every story has to be about the restaraunt business. For example:

My family makes a variation of Ghoulosh (sp) called gugaliash. I made it for my parents and sister when they came up to help me with my taxes and that day I had to deal with some particularly harrowing customers. I could write a short page about the customers, my parents, and include the recipe.

If Gravekeeper had a recipe, for example (if he ever has time to cook in his busy day to day life of dealing with North America's finest fucktards and his cat) he could attach it to an edited-for-distribution style version of one of the many posts he has here on CS.com.

And lastly, I think Lulu.com is the best venue for this project as you can determine how the book is produced and I do belive a lot of people use it for publishing their own cook books. That and the copyright is essentially provided for us.

[Whiskey]

I'll take care of the entire cocktail section of that book

[Jester]

What, Whiskey, do you think you're the only mixologist here?

[Gravekeeper]

I have a highly guarded cookie recipe I developed over many Christmases. ;p

I question what to use as a title. Since "Flavours That Make The Hurting Stop" isn't that appetizing.

[Der Cute]

Now, I've got some good cookies, but they're based on a published cookie recipie from a corporate place.
I have taken some liberty to tweak the cookies to my own taste, and they come out very very good.
These are choc chips btw, which is kind of a standardized, common recipe.

Can I use my recipe, with the tweaks to make it "mine" ?

PS ask Karl Tax Guy how good they are. :P

[phantasy]

I may not have any skills to add to the cookbook, such as printing, typing it up on Word or anything like that, but I do have lots of recipes to add.

I also second the ideas of sending any profits we make to Raps to keep the site up, as well as sending extra profits to a charity, one that everyone supports.

[Eireann]

Maybe we could get James Lileks to review it.