He will never have my forgiveness!

[42_42_42]

(I'm going to preface this by saying that this discussion really got me thinking, I had no idea this was going to be so long when I started writing it, and I have done my level best to stay out of fratching territory and I hope and think I've succeeded, but if the mods judge otherwise I submit wholly and humbly to your judgement. And now, without further ado, here is what turned into, "My essay on Forgiveness." )

Ah, forgiveness and absolution: two very different things that have become very much confused.

Forgiving someone is not something you do for the other person, it's something you do for yourself. The actual definitionof forgiveness is "the release of resentment." It is NOT exoneration or absolution. The forgiven still holds an obligation of retribution. The wrong done still exists; it is not suddenly something that is right or okay to do/have done. Forgiveness is something that ONLY the wronged can give and it's really something you are giving to yourself. You cannot forgive someone while you still feel resentment towards that person.

The continued harboring of resentment to those who have wronged you holds onto the pain that person caused, allowing the part of you (whether you call that part your soul, your internal self, your private self, your psyche, etc) injured by the wrong to remain injured, and, like a wound, it can fester or it can scar.

Sometimes it is impossible to move on, the internal wound remains open, causing your existence to be a function of the injury. Sometimes we pick at it, taking over for the person who wronged us and re-injuring ourselves. The wrong done to us becomes who we are. In these cases, for ourselves, we must learn to forgive in order to be free, to truly live.

But to forgive is not to forget. The wrong is part of our past, part of us, a scar: evidence of survival, proof that we are strong enough to endure, a reminder that we don't have to let the things done to us define us.

Since forgiveness is really a gift we give ourselves, to ask whether the other person "deserves" forgiveness is really the wrong question. What we should be asking, is do WE deserve forgiveness?

So what's really happening when the following exchange happens?
wrong-doer: "I apologize." (Please forgive me.)
wronged: "I forgive you?"

People ask for forgiveness for two reasons:

• The repentant knows they've done wrong, feels guilt and remorse, and wants to repair the breach in the relationship that they've caused.
• The unrepentant doesn't believe they've done anything wrong, they just don't like others thinking badly of them.

When you forgive someone, you aren't absolving them of guilt and you aren't saying that what they did was okay--the repentant knows this and continues to feel guilt and remorse over the wrong they've done. The unrepentant interprets forgiveness as absolution because they are seeking validation for their own point of view--the unrepentant receives forgiveness as an apology from the wronged for feeling wronged.

To say to someone "I forgive you" you are saying to that person, "I no longer resent the thing(s) that you did to me." Sometimes you are also saying "While you have wronged me, I still want a relationship with you and I am going accept in retribution the things you do to repair the relationship."

So, if forgiveness is the release of resentment and is something the wronged really does for themselves, what's all this business about God (big "G" or little "g", the FSM, or what-have-you) forgiving people? It goes back to my initial statement (copied and pasted here for your convenience). "Forgiveness and absolution: two very different things that have become very much confused." Yes, you can open pretty much any English translation (I honestly don't know about the other language editions, including the original languages the thing was written in because I, sadly and to my everlasting shame, speak and read only English...but I digress) and find the words "forgive" and "forgiveness" and "forgiven". Without digging out a copy of it or getting into a deep theological discussion (rather than one I've tried to keep philosophical) I'm going to leave it that most likely in some of those places the word is used correctly (for whatever superficial or "deep theological" reason) and in others absolution or another word is more correct.

Besides, the idea that God (or a god or a big ball of pasta flying through space) would or could hold resentment I find extremely scary and not altogether fitting with my understanding of things. However, the idea that I can be loved and cherished and belonging in good places with good people and good things despite the fact that I fuck up all the time, I find rather comforting. And that's what I think most people are trying to get at.

Others are just sanctimonious pricks.

[Misanthropical]

I'm firmly in agnostic territory, but I was raised fundamentalist christian. So I've had the whole 'forgive those who wrong you', bit shoved down my throat my whole life.

but there is a simple truth that somethings just cannot be forgiven. I had my mother ask me once "Why don't you forgive ____? The bible teaches us about forgiveness." my answer was, if they wanted forgiveness that was between them and whatever god they chose. It had nothing to do with me.

Your step father doesn't deserve forgiveness in my opinion. dieing alone and miserable maybe, but not forgiveness.

I was also raised in a fundamentalist christian household. My mother and step father played the loving christians when people were around, so everyone looked up to them. The things they did went on behind closed doors. However, the bruises still showed up and no one even thought to ask me where they came from.

My friend is a minister in one of the churches in my home state and while he accepts that I'm Agnostic he is still big on forgiveness. He knows something very bad happened, he doesn't know all the details.

My scars are still there to show me where I have been and how I survived it, they don't dictate where I am going or who I am.

[DGoddessChardonnay]

Mis, don't worry about what somebody back home says about "forgiveness." That has to be your choice. If you choose not to, then that's okay.

If I'd been through similar to what you endured, I really don't know how I would have handled it all. However, you have plenty of good things in your life that need your attention.

I wouldn't give that person back home another thought and concentrate on what matters most to me - my family, my friends and my life as it is.

You're a beautiful person just as you are and don't ever let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

[Misanthropical]

Amethyst Hunter those two friends are very good at getting their point across without words.

You are all very sweet. I want to thank you all for taking the time to read and for the understanding you all have shown me.

I try not to dwell on what has happened. I rarely bring it up, so most people have no clue what I lived through. Apparently, some think I am easy target to try to intimidate and/or scare since I seem to look like someone who has lived a sheltered life and they have no clue I have seen and lived through scarier things than they will ever be.

I was extremely pissed off that my step father would even think to tell my friend that I should grow up and get over it and how it took my step father years to get over what I had done to him. WTF could I have done to that asshole when I was a child unless the asshole is talking about having to stare down the barrel of a shotgun, either way I have zero sympathy for a man who loved causing pain to someone so much smaller than he was.

If I saw him dying, I would just smile at him and tell him the demons are waiting to take his soul to the hell he so richly deserves.

I told my friend that I plan on having a huge party when my step father dies and it will be an even bigger celebration if I find out he died in horrific pain. I also mentioned that I want to see my step father die screaming, so I can tell him myself that he richly deserves what is happening.

I wish I could hug each and everyone one of you for the support you have all shown me in this matter and other things I have posted about. You guys are all true friends and I don't know what I would do without you all. Okay, I have to stop before I cry. Here is a hug for each and everyone of you.

[BlaqueKatt]

I don't speak of my childhood with my children, since no real good can come of it

actually at some point you may want to talk about it for several reasons:

1-you broke the cycle-you were abused but did not become an abuser, or a victim.

and

2-that no matter what life throws at you you can overcome it.


those are two very important things.

[Misanthropical]

BlaqueKatt Yes, I did break the cycle. I never wanted my children to live through the pain and horror that I had lived through nor would I ever allow myself to be a victim again.

I have overcome a lot to get to this point in my life but I know that if I have to overcome something again that Mr. Mis will be there to help me through it as he has done before.

I told Mr. Mis. when we were dating some of what I had gone through and it was one of the rare times I have seen him cry. He promised me he would do everything in his power to make sure I was safe from anyone hurting me again.

You do make a good point about telling my children about my childhood. I will have to think about that.

[Eisa]

I was also raised in a fundamentalist christian household. My mother and step father played the loving christians when people were around, so everyone looked up to them. The things they did went on behind closed doors.

And that is why I now have a hard time trying to figure out what my beliefs are. Hard to be all gung-ho about Christianity when people have used it to hurt you.

You are incredible. Your stepfather is an evil asshole.

I also agree with BlaqueKatt, it might be good to bring it up when they're old enough or what have you.

[Becks]

Mis, may I offer you some hugs and the attention of my boy cat, Hetfield? He loves getting his neck and jaws rubbed.

[Misanthropical]

Aww Eisa you have made me blush. Yes, I agree that being raised in a fundamentalist church, which I left when I was 18 and have never gone back, does tend to make my beliefs be all over the map.

The pastor of the church I grew up in blamed me for what happened and told me he would welcome my step father back with open arms. And, that is how I came to be called a Jezebel.

My Lutheran pastor told me that I'm not anything like Jezebel. I am clearly more like Esther.

[Misanthropical]

Mis, may I offer you some hugs and the attention of my boy cat, Hetfield? He loves getting his neck and jaws rubbed.

I love hugs and cats, so I accept your offer! One thing though, I'm allergic to cat dander, which sucks since I really like cats.

[Becks]

Hugs from me, a quick hug from Hetfield, and a pic of him you can keep.

[Eisa]

Aww Eisa you have made me blush. Yes, I agree that being raised in a fundamentalist church, which I left when I was 18 and have never gone back, does tend to make my beliefs be all over the map.

The pastor of the church I grew up in blamed me for what happened and told me he would welcome my step father back with open arms. And, that is how I came to be called a Jezebel.

My Lutheran pastor told me that I'm not anything like Jezebel. I am clearly more like Esther.

Awww. I don't know that I was necessarily raised in a fundamentalist church, but religion was kind of tied into it in a big way [not really in the abuse sense, just in the "we are such good, wonderful Christians" sense that I kind of took a step back and went: wait, what? But that's a long story and yeah. ]

Oh. My. God. SERIOUSLY? WTF, he should not be a pastor. Ever. He should have to go live with your stepfather and then you go after them BOTH with the damn shotgun.

I'd much rather be like Esther. Esther was lovely and wonderful and brave.

[lilnizzie]

I rarely comment on here...

But reading this thread has brought up 2 points for me.

One, I continue to find you utterly inspiring and fascinating, Misanthropical, and I truly wish I could know and meet you in real life, just so I could observe this unbelievable self awareness and strength in "real time"

Two, I will try to never get down on myself or situations i am in anymore. I know that it can be far far worse, and as you have proven, more than survivable.

Thank you for sharing yourself with us, and know that you have inspired another person. I haven't gone though what you have ( I KNOW how dang lucky I am to have had the loving parents I do / did) But with my own personal demons, I can see that the pain and suffering is beatable.

[Seshat]

I don't speak of my childhood with my children, since no real good can come of it, but they have figured out something really bad must have happened for me not to want to discuss it. Plus, the warning I have given them about how only evil will come out of looking up "family".

I'm going to chime in here on the telling/not telling your children.

I'm a second-generation abused. My parents were abused, but they tried very hard to break the cycle.

I - regrettably - have to say that they failed. I will never report the abuse, and I have no fear for my niece and nephew, for whom they will be and are terrific grandparents. But I'm their oldest, and in my mind are the scars of their mistakes.
(If I feared for my niece and nephew, you betcha I'd report. But I'm certain my abuse was accidental, the legacy of their own, and that they've learned better since.)

Mis, your children know something is up. They know you have strange reactions to some things. You have scars, they show in ways children are sensitive to.
(NOTE: I sincerely doubt your children are suffering second-generation abuse. I mention it to point out that I knew something was up, and I'm sure your children do too.)

Your children will sometimes be wondering if Mummy is upset because of something they did. Better for them to know Mummy is upset because of scary things that happened in her past, but it's alright now.

They don't need details; though I'd recommend giving them age-appropriate information on bully/abuser avoidance. I don't have details of my parents' abuse (in fact, I had to figure out myself that my mother was abused); just knowing that it happened and is part of the reason for their behaviour is enough to let me recover and heal.
For your (much luckier) kids, just knowing that it happened and is why Mummy is sometimes sad, angry, or protective will be enough.

My scars are still there to show me where I have been and how I survived it, they don't dictate where I am going or who I am.

And now for my talk on forgiveness, both to you and to Whiskey. (And to anyone else in such a situation.)

The quote above is a very good sign.

Here's my definition:
Forgiveness occurs when you become willing to let go of your own pain.

Forgiveness is not forgetting! Forgiveness is also not saying anything about the other party's side. They still need to acknowledge their actions, attempt correction, attempt atonement.

Forgiveness is all about your own side. The injured party. Forgiveness is a stage of healing.

Forgiveness is when you can say to yourself 'I don't need to dwell on this incident anymore'. You've learned all you can from it, it's time to move on.

For me, I had to learn and understand that I was second-generation abused before I could forgive my parents and move on. (I still can't handle new interactions with them - it seems forgiveness in my psyche only covers past injuries.)

I still feel regret. I still wonder what it would have been like to be raised without the abuse. But it's no longer a burning pain in my psyche, just a gentle regret.

(Oh - and forgiveness doesn't make you stupid, either. If my parents hurt my niece and nephew, I'll be up there with a flamethrower. And very stompy boots. But so long as they behave themselves, the past is the past.

In Mis' case, where it's almost certain that if she exposed her children to her parents, they would be abused themselves - well. No. Just no. Like I said, forgiveness =/= stupid.)


My take on forgiveness is a lot more Buddhist than Christian - if you want more info, either ping me and I'll try to verbalise it better, or study Buddhist readings on the topic.


Edit to add: you don't have to tell someone they're forgiven, either. In fact, with the stepfather who would then take it as absolution, it'd be healthier all 'round if you didn't!

[XCashier]

My Lutheran pastor told me that I'm not anything like Jezebel. I am clearly more like Esther.

You are more like Esther than Jezebel. Esther was willing to risk her life to protect her family and people, and from your past posts that I've read, so are you.

Telling your kids what happened is a good idea, but only you know if they can process the information. It could help them to steer clear of bullies and manipulators if they know what to look out for.

I think you're doing the right thing, cutting off contact with that unrepentant jerk. Brush him off like dust.

I also think you've got a pretty good handle on your life, so I won't offer any more advice, just wanted to wish you and yours all the best.