EVE Online?

[Gravekeeper]

Though you might consider contacting CCP and mentioning that you have vision issues, and to make an accessibility version where you could change the font size a lot. They may consider it.

The font size has been a complaint for a long, long time now. They haven't shown any indication of changing it, since it means redoing the UI. -.-

Even in the newbie corp it isn't actually safe

Yeah, and even with the newbie corp people just fuck with you in other ways. Like jumping into your mission, grabbing the quest item and warping out. Making it uncompletable. You're right about the thieving thing, as there's no deterrant at all. Swiping something from a newb just means they can shoot you, but so what, if they do, you get permission to blow them out of the sky.

Sure it may be annoying to train without implants, but exploring is a blast, and if you think it is worth slowing down training to have fun exploring, then do it!

Problem is it's not worth it in the early game, because there's too many base skills and fitting skills you need to get ASAP if you want to get anywhere. Early game training speed is one of the game's biggest problems. Because it badly limits the rate at which you can do new things vs the rate at which you tire of the stuff you have to do.

This is why I had very little luck getting friends to play. They'd play for couple hours and go "Well that was cool, but I'm getting bored. Now what?" and the game goes "Now you log off and come back tomorrow when your training queue is finished so you can do something else".

Tutorial missions will literally give you a skill book and say "Here train this so you can do the tutorial mission" then you sit there for 10 minutes waiting for it to train just so you can do a tutorial. >.>

Its just a bad system for the early game. It really should have some sort of skill distribution system when you roll a new character so you can start with the basics and a few skills of interest. Then work out from there. So you have something to keep you interested out of the gate while other skills are training.

Essentially, EVE's entire character progression system is a Veteran Rewards Program.

[AccountingDrone]

Problem is it's not worth it in the early game, because there's too many base skills and fitting skills you need to get ASAP if you want to get anywhere. Early game training speed is one of the game's biggest problems. Because it badly limits the rate at which you can do new things vs the rate at which you tire of the stuff you have to do.

This is why I had very little luck getting friends to play. They'd play for couple hours and go "Well that was cool, but I'm getting bored. Now what?" and the game goes "Now you log off and come back tomorrow when your training queue is finished so you can do something else".

Tutorial missions will literally give you a skill book and say "Here train this so you can do the tutorial mission" then you sit there for 10 minutes waiting for it to train just so you can do a tutorial. >.>

Its just a bad system for the early game. It really should have some sort of skill distribution system when you roll a new character so you can start with the basics and a few skills of interest. Then work out from there. So you have something to keep you interested out of the gate while other skills are training.

Essentially, EVE's entire character progression system is a Veteran Rewards Program.

I actually like the amorphous skill cloud system much better than the level system in all my other games. If I want my lore-keeper in LOTRO to have a bog critter pet, I have to get to level 50 [i think] then I do a quest to get the skill. If it were EVE All I would have to do is train pets to level 5, then train bog beast to 1 instead of having to level up everything. [in a manner of speaking, that is] I suppose you could think of pets like drones. You need to train drones to 5, then scout drones to 5, then minmatar drones to 3 to get to fly a t2 hammerhead [whatever racial hammers are...] but you do not have to also train astronomics, spaceship command, industry and electronics all just to fly a t2 drone...

[Gravekeeper]

I actually like the amorphous skill cloud system much better than the level system in all my other games.

I wouldn't change the system overall, I'd just give players the option to choose a few basic skills to actually start with at character creation and actually start them off with the really base fundemental skills already loaded so they don't have to jump through the completely unnessaccary hoop of buying skill books for the basic skills.

But one of the biggest problems is how vague said amorphous skill cloud system is. New players often need to rely very heavily on help from other players to even figure out what to do with said system. The very fact the game has a third party skill planning program thats pretty much required to figure out what you need to do to do what, is a huge red flag that some tweaks are needed.

The tutorials give the impression that there's several different routes of specialization you can take to create your own "class". When in fact the basic training routine to start with is practically identical regardless of what you ultimately want to do. With the exception of Combat vs Industry. Which is the only real focus choice you can make as a new player.

Real, actual specialization in a given type of ship or area of expertise is months and months of training away. In the meantime you'll go the standard route of Frigate > Cruiser > Battlecruiser then hit a training wall where you're sitting in the same ship doing the same thing with the same equipment for months until you can actually begin to use anything else. Then months more after that till you can actually use it well.

On top of that, anything of any real interest or value is restricted entirely to lowsec. Making it rather difficult for new players to experience without being fisted by older players. Who seem to make it a point to fuck over any newbie they see so they can "learn" how harsh the game world is.

I'd still be playing if anything it told me in the tutorial was actually true and if I didn't have like 3 months of training ahead of me to even begin to fly something other than a Harbinger. Something useful mind you. As every type of ship in each racial category either has one ship that's universally considered the "best" or is totally useless for anything outside of specific PvP situations.

Basically, for the sheer amount of work and research it takes to get started and find your feet in the game, there's very little reward for your effort as ultimately you're going to be waiting around trying to entertain yourself while your skills train. -.-

[Kaylyn]

I don't know if this is what I'm supposed to be doing or if it's even worthwhile, but as my playtime is divided between Sims and this at the moment, I'm just keeping skills in my queue, steadily progressing towards certificates. I've almost got Core Competency (Basic) done...in fact, by now it's probably completed. I basically just checked out the new ship I got as a reward (but can't fly yet due to trial account unable to train Gallente Industrial) and started working on the recommendations for it, for when I put forth the money and actually buy a month, which will probably be today actually.

For right now I'm not too worried about the time it takes to train, as I have plenty of other stuff to do out of the game if I find I need to wait on anything. But I'm taking such a slow pace at the moment and am perfectly content doing highsec, repetitive missions. I'm not even out of the secondary tutorials yet, working on my second set of those 10-step missions (did mining first, now exploration).

I'm sure I'll hit a wall and get annoyed eventually. I can't take much asshattery, as evidenced by my very low tolerance for playing League of Legends. One round there and I'm good for months. I guess when I stop enjoying the game, I'll quit, just like I've done multiple times with WoW. (But...c'mon...Pandaren monks are coming out!)

[Gravekeeper]

I basically just checked out the new ship I got as a reward (but can't fly yet due to trial account unable to train Gallente Industrial) and started working on the recommendations for it, for when I put forth the money and actually buy a month, which will probably be today actually.

Its useful to be able to fly a low tech transport ship just to move things around, but don't go deep into it. Else that's near all you'll be able to do ;p

Yeah, intially its only a matter of "Well I'll just come back tomorrow when they're done". So its not too bad. Where I was though, my next ship was something like 96 days of training away.

The asshattery is indeed a problem, because 90% of the actual interesting things to do in EVE require you to head to areas where asshattery is totally permitted.

Also, Pandarens are a complete shark jump and just tell me that Blizzard has truly reached its limit with WoW this time. >.>

[Rapscallion]

The asshattery is indeed a problem, because 90% of the actual interesting things to do in EVE require you to head to areas where asshattery is totally permitted.

In some recent advertising, it was encouraged - it pretty much advertised that you could be cheated as a corp CEO or be the one cheating. The demographic they aim for is really the one whereby players are set against players.

Not saying this is good or bad, it's the player base they attract.

On the plus side, even after being podded (and this happened to me two weeks back), it's quite possible to start to come back.

I've been thinking a bit more about the game as compared to others. Many games have huge amounts of grind and Eve is no different. In GW you had to grind PVP for one title, or keep clearing areas, or open myriad chests, or...

WoW has crafting or mining grind, or fishing, or xp grind (GW wasn't too bad for that) to max level - and the max level goes up with new expansions every so often.

I used to GM in a MUD where it encouraged people to be in clans, and then it taxed the hell out of clans forcing people to trade across the continent time and again to keep their clan and town in the style to which they had become accustomed. Other games have similar systems.

Grind is a pain in the bum, but the alternative is a mammoth task of generating new content on pretty much a daily basis. The companies need grind to keep people in the game and paying.

I'm fairly content with Eve's system at the moment. I'm getting a reasonable variety of missions of the type I want. The longer wait times for bigger or different ships are generally acceptable for most occasions, as I've found that the extra month or so it took me to Tengu up have been most profitable. It felt like a completely different game for a day or two when I upgraded to one. I can go on holiday and come back to a near-completed skill if I have a week off, so downtime isn't completely wasted.

It's not perfect, but it does enough right for me.

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

In some recent advertising, it was encouraged - it pretty much advertised that you could be cheated as a corp CEO or be the one cheating. The demographic they aim for is really the one whereby players are set against players.

Yeah its kind of self defeating. They built the player base around it and now they can't expand their demographic because of the player base.

On the plus side, even after being podded (and this happened to me two weeks back), it's quite possible to start to come back.

Its possible, its just 90% of the time when I've lost a ship its been entirely because of the server. The other 10% of the time its been because the designers are assholes and there are a couple of L3 missions that for no apparent reason and with no warning whatsoever are actually L4 difficulty ( "A Million Little Pieces" ). If that, I've had easier L4 missions frankly. -.-

I've been thinking a bit more about the game as compared to others. Many games have huge amounts of grind and Eve is no different. In GW you had to grind PVP for one title, or keep clearing areas, or open myriad chests, or...

The game is very interesting in that experience/level is not a metric and the only true measure of success is your ability to make and utilize the money required to support whatever you want to do. The problem with that though, is that in order to use that kind of metric, you need to have a ton of money sinks, which EVE creates by forcing players to take on major risks and to take care of too many logistics.

Logistics is the killer for new players and what ultimately drives off a lot of players. Because players have to do too much of the mechanical work to support the fun. PVP is a prime example. Even if a new player just wants to hop into a frigate and goober in the faction wars, it means they actually have to secure a supply of frigates and parts. Which they need to move to or keep at a location close to the action in order to utilize, and they can ultimately only PVP until they run out of money. So even if PVP really is your thing, you're limited until you're forced to back to grinding money to support your habit.

That's the killer. If you compare it to any other MMO, like WoW for example:

WoW: You die, you're forced to wait as a penalty until you can rejoin the action and after respawning a distance away you need to make some brief preperations ( buffs, items, etc ) then make your way back. But then you're right back to the fun. If you die in PVE, your gear is damaged so there's a small monetary penalty. But its not punitive and morale crushing to a new player.

EVE: You die, you're forced to buy a new ship, then get all the parts again for that ship, and your supply to those parts is based on a finite supply and may or may not even be in your current location. If you're particularly unlucky ( or the server hiccups ) and get podded, you may also be out millions in implants. Even if you spent 20-30 minutes of not fun moving a supply of frigates and parts to that location, you're still looking at a few minutes of getting your shit together before you even get back to a jump gate. If you're really unlucky the hot spot will taper off or move further away from your supply point.

Essentially, EVE is too far towards Work and not enough towards Play with an extremely high penalty for failure that discourages players from trying new things. Yes, it attracts and caters too a specific type of player, but their attempts to branch out from that narrow demographic have been a failure so far. Its just not a newb-friendly game and its existing player base actively works against new players. So without some fundemental changes in the way the game works, they're going to be stuck with fairly stagnant subscription growth.

Which is a shame, mind you, because the game could really be brilliant with some tweaks.

Grind is a pain in the bum, but the alternative is a mammoth task of generating new content on pretty much a daily basis. The companies need grind to keep people in the game and paying.

Which is the critical flaw in their entire design. Good PVP is self sustaining content and can carry an MMO for a very long time in lieu of having to generate constant content. It totally carried DaoC for years ( and we're talking a game where there was maybe 3 available quests every 5-10 levels spread across the entire world and they granted you 20% of a level total. The rest you just had to grind. ).

By making their PvP so difficult to get in too and so difficult to sustain, they're shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

I'm fairly content with Eve's system at the moment.

I didn't mind the system so much, like you said, not perfect but the fact you didn't have to pay attention to the game for your skills to progress was nice. I just found it frustrating that there was so little I could do without risking so much, and that all the cool sounding ship roles and gameplay styles were totally an illusion.

[Rapscallion]

Yeah its kind of self defeating. They built the player base around it and now they can't expand their demographic because of the player base.

Seems to attract a reasonable number of people, but not the numbers they'd really want.

Its possible, its just 90% of the time when I've lost a ship its been entirely because of the server. The other 10% of the time its been because the designers are assholes and there are a couple of L3 missions that for no apparent reason and with no warning whatsoever are actually L4 difficulty ( "A Million Little Pieces" ). If that, I've had easier L4 missions frankly. -.-

I've just completed level 4 Duo Of Death and it was ... something I could have done easily in a drake, possibly even a caracal. Currently on Downing the Slavers and the incoming damage from that is hard to handle. Tried a different hardener and it seems to have done the trick, but very nervous for a minute there.

To a certain extent, that's very lifelike.

Most of my ship losses have been me being very stupid. However, I can appreciate it when there are battles with over a thousand people on each side (not my beverage of choice, I have to admit) and I've heard of many tales of lag and people dying without knowing about it for a few minutes.

There's a new thing in that distributes lag evenly. The coder who brought it in was very open in admitting that combatting lag was probably never going to be successful, so they've got a stopgap in place. Far from perfect, but every time they make it easier to get more ships in one place for a fight, more players turn up to fight.

The problem with that though, is that in order to use that kind of metric, you need to have a ton of money sinks, which EVE creates by forcing players to take on major risks and to take care of too many logistics.

Alternatively, they could easily prevent people from earning as much as they do. Saturday afternoon for me saw an increase in my personal funding of 140 mill and that was casual missioning plus a bit of mining.

Logistics is the killer for new players and what ultimately drives off a lot of players.

I'd have suggested that the new player support is lacking. When you get used to the game and playing style, it's not that bad to get back on your feet. Getting through those first weeks of play is where they lose most people, I guess.

So even if PVP really is your thing, you're limited until you're forced to back to grinding money to support your habit.

Wholeheartedly agree, but is that so wrong? Willing suspension of disbelief and all that. You walk under a bus on the way to work, you don't wake up back in your bed with a rumpled work suit waiting for you to iron it. I wouldn't say I immerse myself in the universe of Eve, but it does have a reasonable level of realism.

If you're particularly unlucky ( or the server hiccups ) and get podded, you may also be out millions in implants. Even if you spent 20-30 minutes of not fun moving a supply of frigates and parts to that location, you're still looking at a few minutes of getting your shit together before you even get back to a jump gate.

Only millions in implants? I should have been so lucky

To a certain extent, though, I could see how that would end up as an extra high in adrenaline. You run the risk of not losing your life, what with the clone system, but all those hours of work. By the same token, you run the chance of costing someone else the hours of work they have to put in to get back to where they were.

That doesn't do it for me, I have to admit, but I'm more of a carebear by nature.

Essentially, EVE is too far towards Work and not enough towards Play with an extremely high penalty for failure that discourages players from trying new things.

If you're after PvP, then I'm more than happy to agree with you on this point. However, you raise a very valid point about why I quit Evony way back when - if you weren't on 24/7 then you never survived/progressed.

Which is a shame, mind you, because the game could really be brilliant with some tweaks.

You interest me on this. What do you suggest?

I didn't mind the system so much, like you said, not perfect but the fact you didn't have to pay attention to the game for your skills to progress was nice. I just found it frustrating that there was so little I could do without risking so much, and that all the cool sounding ship roles and gameplay styles were totally an illusion.

Mmm, I think my playing style (mostly hi-sec missions) has insulated me from this somewhat.

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

Seems to attract a reasonable number of people, but not the numbers they'd really want.

It has a good healthy base, but its a little niche so it seems to have hit its subscription ceiling.

I've just completed level 4 Duo Of Death and it was ... something I could have done easily in a drake, possibly even a caracal. Currently on Downing the Slavers and the incoming damage from that is hard to handle. Tried a different hardener and it seems to have done the trick, but very nervous for a minute there.

Yeah, I swapped my hardeners and armour for every missions depending on the enemy. A Million Little Pieces though.....ugh. The gate caps you at BC's too. So no bringing in a Battleship ;p

Most of my ship losses have been me being very stupid. However, I can appreciate it when there are battles with over a thousand people on each side (not my beverage of choice, I have to admit) and I've heard of many tales of lag and people dying without knowing about it for a few minutes.

Yeah. I've lost a couple ships in missions though where I came in, took one look around, knew it was too much and immediately warped out. Only to have it lag and my ship keep coasting along into the middle of it. Or, yeah, once I did think I was perfectly fine and warping out. Only to have the lag catch up and snap me back where I instantly exploded from 70% armour.

I'd have suggested that the new player support is lacking. When you get used to the game and playing style, it's not that bad to get back on your feet. Getting through those first weeks of play is where they lose most people, I guess.

Quite, it takes a lot of research and forum searching to really get yourself situated. It was doubly bad when they tried the accelerated training thing for newbies there where you trained at 200% speed but only up to the first 1.2 million SP I think it was. You could totally waste that 200% window by not knowing what to train and most new players did. I know I did. "What do I train?" is the single most common question there is on the forums and in the help chat and its not an easy question to answer. Basically people just end up telling you exactly what to train to what level first, period. Instead of trying to explain why. Because explaining why is too complicated.

Wholeheartedly agree, but is that so wrong? Willing suspension of disbelief and all that. You walk under a bus on the way to work, you don't wake up back in your bed with a rumpled work suit waiting for you to iron it. I wouldn't say I immerse myself in the universe of Eve, but it does have a reasonable level of realism.

Realism is fine to a degree, but remember we're playing games to get away from real. Too much of it and its too much like real. Real isn't that fun. Case in point, you walked under that bus. You didn't fly an awesome space ship into it. ;p

To a certain extent, though, I could see how that would end up as an extra high in adrenaline. You run the risk of not losing your life, what with the clone system, but all those hours of work. By the same token, you run the chance of costing someone else the hours of work they have to put in to get back to where they were.

Yes, its that rush the hardcore niche players love and thus fight against any change that takes away from the difficulty.

I mostly stayed in high-sec too, but it wasn't for a lack of wanting to try other things. It just seemed like too big a risk over reward.

You interest me on this. What do you suggest?

Oh lord help you, you remember I'm game designer for an indie company on the side, right? But very well ;p

For new players:

First thing, I'd structure the character creation so you began with level 1-2 of the base skills required for what you're aiming for. So you could select from character creation if you were aiming to be an industrialist, combat pilot, business, etc. Essentially having the game give you a skill plan to work with and a slight bonus towards that style of play by starting with the skills. Instead of fumbling in the dark. They tried to do this with Certifications, but its still really clunky and obtuse.

Second, I'd have the player start with all relevant base skills loaded but untrained. So you're not dealing with the added complication of buying skill books before you even understand what they are. Really basic stuff like Afterburners shouldn't require a skill book. You should have it preloaded. I hit a lot of snags when I first started because there were skills that affected ship performance that I simply did *not* know even existed because the game doesn't tell you. I ended up sitting on the market for 15 minutes, going down the whole list of skill books just to see what they all were and buying the ones I needed.

Third, I'd add a mechanic to the game that could create a basic skill plan that you could send to another player. Either as a type of email or even as a /slash command. Allowing veteran players to straight up send a training plan to a newbie instead of trying to explain what and how to queue for something.


As for the base game:

I would adjust combat and combat difficulty so that ship types, equipment and roles actually matter outside of PVP. I would also lower the skill threshold to obtain effective versions of different types of modules beyond pure combat roles. Then I would adjust ship bonuses in the Tech 1 ships to exaggerate their distinct roles further.

Lets face it, the vast majority of the ship types are for PVP. Most of the specialized ships have no place at all in PVE and Tech 1 variants of said ships do little to set themselves apart from other ships ( Which are considered better since they're better pure combat ships ). There's no reason to have an ECM ship or a stealth bomber or an interceptor in PVE. PVE's pretty much just about tank and dps. Nothing else. If you have a problem with a PVE situation, you just get more tank and dps. At no point do you go "Oh we could use a Logistics ship to support us, or an ECM ship to debuff/jam" etc etc. You just add more firepower. It gets pretty old after a while and it doesn't encourage players to group because there's no approach to a situation that you can't do yourself. You don't need anyone else to do anything, and grouping with someone does not expand your options.

Even if you try to do something else, it requires so much training to make that something else to be more than a miniscule difference that new players get discouraged away from it. So just loading in more tank or dps is always the superior choice.

I would also support the better range of specialized roles by fleshing out the content for said roles. If you want to be a recon/explorer type, there should be lots more out there for you to find and it should be more rewarding to find. Mission selection should be expanded to include the other neglected roles. There should be missions to explore or missions to negotiate business deals ( not just take an item from A to B or "Buy me 50 of item X" missions ) or even salvage missions and they should be viable sources of income. At present, in high sec, pretty much anything you can possibly do is trumped in income earning ability by simply running combat missions and nothing else.

Finally, I would add dynamic PQs ( Public Quests ) that can spawn in both high and low sec. Similar to Warhammer or RIFT. Where a PVE event can spawn in a zone, and players that take part are automatically banded together in order to defeat it. Thus giving more dynamic PVE content, and giving more opportunities for grouping and socializing. They don't even have to be complicated. Just spawning waves of invading pirates in the middle of a high sec system would do it.


As for PVP:

PVP's whole problem is A) barrier to entry and B) Even just finding it. They tried to fix this a bit with Faction Wars. But it didn't negate the logistics problems. Thus I would add two things:

First, if you fight for a faction, you can obtain a free, unlimited, prefitted variant of the faction ships from any faction space station that has the appropriate facilities. It will be like a promotional ship. It cannot be sold, nor can it be refined for anything. It has zero monetary value. Its equipment will be of an average tech level. Not the absolute best money can buy, but not totally the worst either.

For example, if I sign up for Amarr in the Faction Warfare, I have access to a free, unlimited, prefitted ( but weaker ) version of the Amarr Navy Slicer. It cannot be sold or refined. I can only have one at a time. If it is destroyed as it inevitably will be, I can get another from the closest Amarr station to the conflict that has industrial/military facilities. It *can* be fitted with different modules and weapons if I want to buy them. But those are not replaced if its destroyed. So basically I can choose how much or how little ISK I want to risk in PVP. But I can never be totally reduced to zero PVP capability. Thus I am free to actually learn how to PVP and get use to it without risking everything. At the same time, it is not the best Frigate you can fly in PVP, but its not the worst either. As such, it is not a superior PVE option to existing ships either, and I lose access to it the moment I leave Faction Warfare or loss reputation with said Faction.

This will be presented in game as an insurance contract basically. A military requisition contract that lets me draw upon limited equipment requisition for the faction I fight for.

Second, you can use Loyalty Points to purchase different requisition contracts too, but not beyond Tech 1 Cruisers. Essentially slowly earning my right in a Faction to have access to a small handful of basic ships I can use without worrying about logistics. But ships above the basic Frigate require I pay a requisition fee every time they need to be replaced. Thus solving the logistics problem for basic PVP, but still requiring me to put something on the line if I want anything but a basic frigate.

So essentially, if I sign up with Amarr, I can use a weaker budget Amarr Navy Slicer as much as I want to learn the ropes and earn LP while I do. Which I can then use to purchase a requisition contract for Amarr Navy Slicers with different module load outs or for contracts for budget Amarr Navy Omens and Navy Augorors. Also with a few different module load out variants. But I have to pay a requisition fee to get replacement Omens/Augorors equivilent to purchasing a Tech 1 cruiser.

Thus the logistics problem is solved for new players, and new players can freely pvp while slowly being introduced to the to the Risk vs Reward factor of pvp as they move beyond a Frigate. At the same time, all the other ship types and Tech 2 ships would remain the same. A player would have to pay for and put at risk anything more impressive or complex than a basic Frigate.

On top of that, with logistics less of a concern, PVP hot spots would become more active for longer periods of time. Resulting in more PVP for everyone. The increased signing up for Faction Wars would likewise create more solidified teams and thus available allies instead of just being you vs the world.

[Rapscallion]

Yeah, I swapped my hardeners and armour for every missions depending on the enemy. A Million Little Pieces though.....ugh. The gate caps you at BC's too. So no bringing in a Battleship ;p

My word, it's full of ships!

Yeah. I've lost a couple ships in missions though where I came in, took one look around, knew it was too much and immediately warped out. Only to have it lag and my ship keep coasting along into the middle of it. Or, yeah, once I did think I was perfectly fine and warping out. Only to have the lag catch up and snap me back where I instantly exploded from 70% armour.

Maybe it's to do with time zones, but I've never experienced it that bad. Well, at all, really. Damn, that's grim.

Quite, it takes a lot of research and forum searching to really get yourself situated. It was doubly bad when they tried the accelerated training thing for newbies there where you trained at 200% speed but only up to the first 1.2 million SP I think it was. You could totally waste that 200% window by not knowing what to train and most new players did. I know I did. "What do I train?" is the single most common question there is on the forums and in the help chat and its not an easy question to answer.

Mmm, maybe in every newbie starting station there could be a special store available to everyone with a limited number of skill points, and it would have a base set of recommended skill books, a limited range, affordable, and that would have a chance of narrowing down what research the players would have to do?

Oh lord help you, you remember I'm game designer for an indie company on the side, right?

Well, I do now...

First thing, I'd structure the character creation so you began with level 1-2 of the base skills required for what you're aiming for. So you could select from character creation if you were aiming to be an industrialist, combat pilot, business, etc. Essentially having the game give you a skill plan to work with and a slight bonus towards that style of play by starting with the skills. Instead of fumbling in the dark. They tried to do this with Certifications, but its still really clunky and obtuse.

I didn't even look in the certs section for about four months. There were so many other shiny buttons!

Second, I'd have the player start with all relevant base skills loaded but untrained. So you're not dealing with the added complication of buying skill books before you even understand what they are. Really basic stuff like Afterburners shouldn't require a skill book. You should have it preloaded. I hit a lot of snags when I first started because there were skills that affected ship performance that I simply did *not* know even existed because the game doesn't tell you. I ended up sitting on the market for 15 minutes, going down the whole list of skill books just to see what they all were and buying the ones I needed.

The concept I came up with above about a newbie store could help here. However, there's already a mechanic to allow them to assign instantly spendable SP to a player (a while back they removed some skills deemed unecessary, and loads of people had free skill points to use instantly). Start with a bank of those and a selection of relevant skill books and it's got some legs.

Third, I'd add a mechanic to the game that could create a basic skill plan that you could send to another player. Either as a type of email or even as a /slash command. Allowing veteran players to straight up send a training plan to a newbie instead of trying to explain what and how to queue for something.

That's a very interesting concept - me likey!

I would adjust combat and combat difficulty so that ship types, equipment and roles actually matter outside of PVP. I would also lower the skill threshold to obtain effective versions of different types of modules beyond pure combat roles. Then I would adjust ship bonuses in the Tech 1 ships to exaggerate their distinct roles further.

<SNIP>

Even if you try to do something else, it requires so much training to make that something else to be more than a miniscule difference that new players get discouraged away from it. So just loading in more tank or dps is always the superior choice.

Fair points.

I would also support the better range of specialized roles by fleshing out the content for said roles. If you want to be a recon/explorer type, there should be lots more out there for you to find and it should be more rewarding to find. Mission selection should be expanded to include the other neglected roles.

There are a few dead-end projects still in the game that could be used to boost this side of things, things that were started and never really completed. R&D and PI for example.

Finally, I would add dynamic PQs ( Public Quests ) that can spawn in both high and low sec. Similar to Warhammer or RIFT. Where a PVE event can spawn in a zone, and players that take part are automatically banded together in order to defeat it. Thus giving more dynamic PVE content, and giving more opportunities for grouping and socializing. They don't even have to be complicated. Just spawning waves of invading pirates in the middle of a high sec system would do it.

Incursions does this - loads of Sansha turn up to cause hassle.

First, if you fight for a faction, you can obtain a free, unlimited, prefitted variant of the faction ships from any faction space station that has the appropriate facilities. It will be like a promotional ship. It cannot be sold, nor can it be refined for anything. It has zero monetary value. Its equipment will be of an average tech level. Not the absolute best money can buy, but not totally the worst either.

Seems reasonable, but maybe stripped? Not sure. I'd not want to make it too spoonfeedy.

Second, you can use Loyalty Points to purchase different requisition contracts too, but not beyond Tech 1 Cruisers. Essentially slowly earning my right in a Faction to have access to a small handful of basic ships I can use without worrying about logistics.

Seems reasonable.

On top of that, with logistics less of a concern, PVP hot spots would become more active for longer periods of time. Resulting in more PVP for everyone. The increased signing up for Faction Wars would likewise create more solidified teams and thus available allies instead of just being you vs the world.

Maybe some local/regional faction channels to advertise for fleets?

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

Maybe it's to do with time zones, but I've never experienced it that bad. Well, at all, really. Damn, that's grim.

Could be, a lot of my play time was daylight/prime time pacific hours.

Mmm, maybe in every newbie starting station there could be a special store available to everyone with a limited number of skill points, and it would have a base set of recommended skill books, a limited range, affordable, and that would have a chance of narrowing down what research the players would have to do?

Still a little bit complicated, though we're on the same general page. That's sort of what I mean though, being able to select some skills to start with, that would start at level 1-2. But from char creation so its a bit more user friendly.

Thing is, a lot of people play MMOs because they can define an avatar, and those defined avatars lead to being seperate/unique from other avatar types. Resulting in personas, stereotypes and communities being built around said avatars. Any given MMO, there's typically opinions about different classes players ( In WoW for example, Hunters are generally considered idiots >.> ). People don't play MMOs to be like everyone else. Hence when you create a character in EVE and realize you're just like everyone else, and will be for months. Then you combine that with a total lack of options to customize even the colour of your ship to set yourself apart in any way. You tend to drive away the more social type players that really cement MMO communities and spread word of mouth getting their friends into it and what not.

Well, I do now...

Hmph, thought I'd mentioned that before. >.> Though the fact I am a writer/designer on the side can't come as that much of a surprise, can it? Hell, while my company has no where near the money to produce them nor ever will probably. I have designed two MMOs just for the hell of it. The design documents are.....terrifyingly large. Novel length actually. I love systems, mechanics, classes, all that crazy shit. I also love analyzing the hell out of such things in other games.

However, there's already a mechanic to allow them to assign instantly spendable SP to a player (a while back they removed some skills deemed unecessary, and loads of people had free skill points to use instantly). Start with a bank of those and a selection of relevant skill books and it's got some legs.

Yeah, I was still playing when that happened. It was clunky, but the mechanic is definately there now.

There are a few dead-end projects still in the game that could be used to boost this side of things, things that were started and never really completed. R&D and PI for example.

Yeah, I never even bothered touching R&D, and PI was such an amazing let down. It could have been so awesome =/

Incursions does this - loads of Sansha turn up to cause hassle.

Yes, I only played Incursion for about a week. Saw....one invasion. Was over before I got anywhere near it. Still, the mechanics for such events are obviously in the game now. But they need to happen with more frequency and should be intentionally triggered in high population zones and especially in newbie zones to engage new players and show off the game.

Seems reasonable, but maybe stripped? Not sure. I'd not want to make it too spoonfeedy.

Well, I'm talking like Tech 1 stuff. Like Laser I. So it can technically shoot, but thats about it. Then people can invest as much or as little as they want to risk by replacing parts.

Maybe some local/regional faction channels to advertise for fleets?

Its definately a bit hard to find any sort of group, and there's no incentive to join them because grouping someone means giving them permission to take you out into the proverbial woods and stab you in the liver. Hell, I accidently banked a beam salvo off a friend of mine in one mission. Since there's no UI feedback preventing you from lighting up a grouped friendly.

On that note, the universe map needs a lot more feedback too. Its hard to tell what, if anything, is going on anywhere without sifting through the statistical filters.