I've got a question for you guys about college...

[mjr]

Ok, so a little backstory.

I'm in my mid 30's, married with a young son.

I started back to school last year, working toward a degree in Computer Science.

I do believe I may want to get a Masters degree after I get my undergrad in Computer Science.

However, I recently found out that I can take two additional math classes, and also have a minor in Mathematics, with a focus in applied mathematics.

But I also discovered by taking probably eight more math classes, I can have a double major. So essentially I could have a degree in Computer Science AND a degree in Mathematics.

The thing is, I'm in my mid-30's right now (in fact, I turn 37 later this year), and it's still probably another 6 years or so before I get my undergrad CompSci degree.

So I'm getting different perspectives on what I should do.

I'm wondering if having a minor in math really brings anything to the table. I mean, it doesn't show up on my degree (only the transcript), so I'm wondering if I should even bother with it. I'm also wondering how much of a difference two undergrad degrees would make (Computer Science and Math), versus just the degree in Computer Science and then pursuing the Masters, as it would relate to the job market and future income potential. I already work in the tech industry.

Getting the math degree as well would probably take me about as much additional time as it may take me to get my Masters degree in Computer Science.

To all this, my son loves mathematics. In fact, he wants to be a mathematician when he grows up. So it would actually be kinda cool at some point to tell him that his dad has a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics.

So, what perspectives are there on this??

[Kristev]

I say, in this difficult (to be generous) job market, the more degrees you have, the more weapons you hold. So go for the gold.

[csquared]

You are asking the right questions. What benefit does the double major bring? It would qualify you to find employment in two fields, but it is probably not going to get you more pay. It may help nudge out another candidate for a job. It may keep you out of a higher paying job for a longer time, as you try to get it.

First things first. Get your CS degree. Get the job you want. Then take the two math classes If you have space in your current schedule, take them now.. Then take the eight math classes, if you still want to.

[It's me]

Your education is going to give you a few things:
-- Demonstrate that you are organized, can get things done, time management, etc
-- Hone your skills for working with other people
-- Provide basic job skills, along with communication skills
-- Give the people who review job applications something to match against when reviewing requirements vs. applicant background

In many ways the last item is the most important. So... you would be far better off taking business courses. The people who get hired and promoted are the ones who can link overall business objectives to whatever their actual job is. So knowing what is important to a business, how strategic goals are set, general industry trends, etc. etc. are the way to go.

[Grendus]

Your education is going to give you a few things:
-- Demonstrate that you are organized, can get things done, time management, etc
-- Hone your skills for working with other people
-- Provide basic job skills, along with communication skills
-- Give the people who review job applications something to match against when reviewing requirements vs. applicant background

In many ways the last item is the most important. So... you would be far better off taking business courses. The people who get hired and promoted are the ones who can link overall business objectives to whatever their actual job is. So knowing what is important to a business, how strategic goals are set, general industry trends, etc. etc. are the way to go.

I'd be wary of taking business courses over engineering or mathematics. Business knowledge is relatively easy to pick up secondhand, but engineering and math qualifications typically require confirmation from an accredited body - I.E. a degree. If you have spare hours, university courses are a great place to get formal and detailed training, but otherwise you can get the same knowledge and skills from your local library with a little more effort and a lot less money.

Given that you're already working in the field, the best long term course for income would probably be to focus on getting your masters. This is advice that was given to me by someone already in the field - nowadays many of the best jobs in the computer field either require or strongly recommend a masters. There's still plenty of work for people with a bachelors (CSE grads are entering something of a buyers market as everything goes digital), but if you're going to get your masters do it quickly, before your broad formal knowledge is replaced with narrow focused experience.

[thansal]

I'll answer these from a bit of an academia perspective (Background: I grew up around a college as both my parents are Profs and I now work as a secretary in said college).

Minors are for your own use, they are rather unlikely to make any difference in terms of further education, if companies look at them when you apply? I sorta doubt it, but it is nice to be able to say "I graduated with a degree in X and a minor in Y".

Second, just to be a bit pedantic: a 2nd major != a second degree. You will come out with a Bachelors degree in X and Y (My GF is like that, though now she has a 2nd bachelors in a 3rd major). There are some exceptions (Oberlin college, where I went, you could get a Double Degree, but that's b/c one was from the conservatory and the other from the college, 2 separate degree granting entities).

That said, a double major is nice, especially if you have the time and money for it. One big reason that getting a 2nd major (or even the minor) can be helpful is if you are lookign to get a masters or doctorate after the fact as you can use it to pick up extra required classes. Look into the programs you would like to apply to and see what classes they require.

My GF did this recently (why she has a 2nd Bachelors) as she wants to apply to Paleontology doctoral programs, and lacked the required Geology, and some of the required Math. So she went back and got those classes done in the form of a 2nd degree, this time in Geology (she didn't need all of the classes, but wanted to do it).

Financial aid is another reason to go for a 2nd major or a minor. If you do receive financial aid, most will only pay for classes directly involved in your degree, so a 2nd major gets you more classes covered under financial aid (Check with your FA office to make sure this is correct in your case).

Lastly: Education is good.
If you like math, and can afford to go for the 2nd major, I think you should (I told you, I grew up in Academia, I view education a worthy goal in and of itself).

One last thing:

First things first. Get your CS degree. Get the job you want. Then take the two math classes If you have space in your current schedule, take them now.. Then take the eight math classes, if you still want to.

This needs some clarification. If you graduate with a CS degree, you can very rarely go back and simply do 2 courses or 8 courses or whatever to tack on a minor/major to an existing degree. Once your degree is conferred, you are now in the status of getting a 2nd degree, and that will take a minimum number of credits (varies based on institution). If you want to do this, speak to your academic advising office/admissions office/registrar's office and see what they say.

On that note, go talk to the office of career development/internships/whatever it's called on your campus. See what they have to say re: 2nd major and job market. Speak to the department/admissions person/people for the programs you are interested in getting the MA from, see what they have to say about the 2nd major/Minor.

Remember, all those additional fees you pay on top of your tuition (and you know, your tuition) are there so that you have access to these people, make use of them while you can.

[It's me]

I'd be wary of taking business courses over engineering or mathematics. Business knowledge is relatively easy to pick up secondhand

Hmmm.... In my case I learned more math and computer-related stuff after I got out of school than I did at school.

But what I was really getting at is the that having the courses listed on your resume helps you get the job in the first place. Whether or not you actually learn anything is secondary!

[Sapphire Silk]

In many ways the last item is the most important. So... you would be far better off taking business courses.

I strongly disagree with this. You can show all the skills you listed within the major without taking a single business course. All of those skills are employability skills; I learned them as a nursing major and as a history major.

My brother works as a computer programmer. He is an expert in Apache web design, and has a master's degree. I asked him if the advanced degree had actually helped him; his response was "not much." What he really learned were administrative and management skills that don't apply to what he actually does: write computer code.

Don't bother with business classes. Focus on becoming the best computer programmer you can be; not just from a technical standpoint of using software, but of actually writing it. Creativity and problem solving are key skills here. Technical writing skills, to help end users use the product, are also very important. English classes help the writing. Math helps the problem solving.

The real issue for the OP is how quickly does he need to get into the working world. If the answer is sooner rather than later, skip the math if it will not help you get a job. If it will help, get the math now.

[mjr]

The real issue for the OP is how quickly does he need to get into the working world. If the answer is sooner rather than later, skip the math if it will not help you get a job. If it will help, get the math now.

I'm actually already in the working world. I've been working since I was 16, but I've been in the Technology field doing web development since my mid-20's (got my first tech job at 24).

So the degree would be mainly to help me in my career, be it with future job prospects, money, or whatever.

So that said, I'm still wondering about the issue in my original post.

My wife thinks that it would benefit me more to get the CS degree and then a Masters on top of it (in CS or a CS-related field). I have had others tell me that the dual degree/dual major is the way to go.

So at this point, it seems like the CS degree with the Masters might be the way to go, but I'm still vacillating a little on what to do.

As I said, I'm in my mid-30's right now (in fact, I turn 37 later this year), so I'm going to be in my early 40's by the time I finish with one degree, much less a dual or a Masters.

[thansal]

A Masters has better options for careers that will pay more. A double major will not really change your earning potential (it might change your likelihood of getting hired, but not your earning potential), and Masters decidedly changes your earning potential. This obviously varies around from field to field (and job to job), however it holds in general.

The converse of this is that you have something that all the other new graduates don't have, years of experience. How it works in your field directly, I can't answer. You would probably be best served by looking at adds for jobs you would like, and seeing what they list as required/desired.

[mathnerd]

Given my user name, you can probably guess that I'm a bit biased.

My advise is coming from the point of view of one with a master's in math, with a concentration in statistics (biostats, really). My undergraduate majors were math and biology with minors in chemistry and English lit (that last one wasn't intentional...my adviser looked at my transcripts and said Hey! you have a lit minor here!). I worked for years as a 7th grade math teacher and an adjunct at a community college, so I'm also biased with the whole school thing to start with.

How many choices do you have with course selection? When I was doing my undergrad, I had to choose one of several tracks within my major. Applied mathematics was one of them, but there was also general mathematics, statistics, a track for duel education/math majors, one for duel CS/math majors and one more, which I'm forgetting at the moment. I completed the statistics track. There might be a way to to combine requirements so you don't have quiet so many classes to take, depending on your school. I'd look into that first.

Do you have any elective credits you're required to take? If you still have a few left, take a lower level abstract math course (if you haven't already) to fill those requirements. I can't tell you how many people I knew in my own programs that started out as "OMG, I just LOVE math!" who got to abstract algebra or topology and changed to "This stuff is awful! I hate it!" and switched majors. In their Sr. years. Most schools offer a class (and actually require it for math majors/minors) called something to the effect of "Introduction to Abstract Mathematics". This is a reasonably decent class to use in order to judge how you feel about abstract vs computational mathematics. If you have elective credits to fill, it doesn't take you any more time or money, since if you decide you hate math, or that you love math, but don't want to do a second major, the credits meet the elective requirement anyway, so no time/money lost.

Lastly, recently I've been taking a lot of those free courses through places like Coursera. My CS skills are laughable at best, and that seemed like a good way to learn stuff at no cost without having to worry if the information is valid. I've found that my statistics background really helped in several of the courses (algorithms and machine learning to be specific). Math and CS really complement each other, so a double major can give you a more in depth knowledge of both subject areas.

On the major vs minor debate: If you structure it properly, you can set yourself up for admission to grad school in a mathematics program with just a minor. This leaves you options for the future without taking up too much more of your time now. That might be a better choice than trying to cram in a whole bunch of additional classes now. If you like going to school you can finish your current undergrad, do your CS masters, and if you still feel like going to school, do a masters in math. It's a lot of years in school though, which is a drawback.

[mjr]

Mathnerd's post...

Well, I do have a few options when it comes to the math.

The first is the minor I spoke of. This would require, I believe, two additional classes.

Then, there's the double major (CS & Math). In that case, the math piece offers me three options, I believe. "General" Math, Applied Math, and Statistics. The same would be for the dual degree.

Right now, my employer has a disbursement program, where I take the classes and essentially I buy the books and my employer pays for the classes, as long as I pass.

However, if I get a different job, I'll be responsible for paying my own way. So there may eventually be that factor. As far as the CompSci, I have one "academic elective", and my adviser told me that the Pre-Calculus class I'm currently taking will count as that elective.

I would eventually like to pursue a Masters in CS.

So I hope that provides you with a little more information. I'm supposed to speak to my adviser tomorrow, so hopefully I'll have some good questions and can get some good answers.

[thansal]

Would your employer pay for your Masters? If so, I would really suggest taking advantage of that. Coming out of a Masters with no debt? SCORE!

[mathnerd]

Okay, knowing that you're currently in pre-calculus actually provides a lot of additional information. Every school is different, of course, but here are the math courses that I was required to take after the pre-calc level:

Calculus 1 and 2 (single variable differential and integral calculus)
Calculus 3 (multi-variable calculus)
Linear Algebra
Introduction to Abstract Mathematics
1st term of Abstract Algebra
1st term of Analysis or Topology
Probability theory (1 term course)
Mathematical statistics (1 term course)
1st term of Combinatorics or 1st term of 2nd year probability theory.

At my university it was possible to take the intro to abstract math course prior to any of the calculus courses. Actually, they encouraged students to take it in the term they were taking calculus 2, but the calc background really was unnecessary. That class was basically set theory, proof writing and introducing standard notation for stuff we already knew how to do, but is notated differently in abstract math vs computational math. Function notation comes to mind here as the major item in that category (it's been a long time since my undergrad years, so my memory might not be perfect).

I think that considering the fact that you would still have a really long way to go for a math major, that my earlier advise to take some of the lower level classes and see how you feel is still the best way to go. I wouldn't make a decision about math until you've taken at least through the calculus series and one abstract math course. Even if you wind up not using the courses for a degree, they're still helpful in your CS ambitions, and having them under your belt keeps doors open for the future.

[mjr]

Would your employer pay for your Masters? If so, I would really suggest taking advantage of that. Coming out of a Masters with no debt? SCORE!

Yes, as long as it's job-related. In my case, it would be. Though it's probably going to take me another 5 or 6 years just to get the undergrad, and I don't necessarily see myself working at the company where I am now for that long. I may need to look into grants...

The only thing that they won't pay for is a doctorate, and I don't feel the need to do that.