Got in Trouble 2 days ago at work (aspie conversing with a latino girl)

[Ree]

Well, not to get into a debate about it, (because that's definitely a fratching thing), it is true the rate has risen, but I still have a major issue with the reasons behind that fact.

I recently read statistics from a 2005 study that put the rate at as many as 1 in 166 children and about 1 in 500 to 1,000 people living with it.

Part of that could be due to more information getting out there, so cases which before, may have fallen through the cracks, and diagnosed as something else, are now being recognized.
Part could be environment.
Some doctors feel that there really is an increase, and that it has definitely been caused by exposure to something in the environment.
There is one school of thought that a mercury-based preservative in childhood immunizations could be contributing to the rise.

Statistics of occurrence vary from state to state, and from areas within each state, and from country to country as well, which certainly gives some credence to the environmental factor.

There are some medical professionals who feel the sudden increase in statistics is because doctors, eager to make up for past neglect, are jumping too quickly at the autism diagnosis.

I also believe, though, that many parents, eager to pigeon-hole and stick a label on what's wrong with their child, will grasp at the "Asperger's/autism" label, because it has less of a stigma than other mental issues, and it takes the onus off of them for teaching their child appropriate social behaviours.
Also, it gives the parents a concrete name to pin on behaviours they can't explain. It allows the child special allowances, such as extra time for tests, (because they certainly wouldn't get that if the child didn't have that special label of "Asperger's/autism"), as well as the obvious access to more funding and insurance for special programs that they would not have if the label was not attached to their child's condition.

I think that there are many children being inaccurately diagnosed.
They fit many of the important criteria, so the label gets slapped on there, but upon further research or using different methods, the child will suddenly make remarkable progress with only a very few remaining problems.

I also think many young adults, eager to explain their lack of social grace and the odd thoughts and feelings swirling in their head, will read about this syndrome and identify with many of the symptoms, and therefore, will self-diagnose because it makes sense to them.

There are way too many statistics and data available to show the increase, that continuing to say it doesn't exist would be foolish, but I also feel there are just too many people who feel that the label is important to excuse away boorish or bad behaviour in social settings.

To quote a good friend of mine, "Everybody wants to be a special snowflake."
Sometimes, it's easier to say, "I'm an aspie," than to admit, "I am rude and inconsiderate of other people's feelings, and I really don't care."

[TNT]

Autism and AS are becoming MUCH more common. I just wish they could figure out which genes cause it and figure out how to somehow work with it.

Without turning this into a fratching debate, one has to wonder if:

A. It's actually becoming more common
B. Better screening is leading to more diagnoses.
C. The definition has become considerably looser.

My semi-educated guess is it's largely C. We've become a society that can't accept anything that doesn't have a label. Part of that is because the government and insurance companies won't fund anything that doesn't have a name.

As I've mentioned before, I used to be very close to a psychiatrist... we worked together in the same programs, plus I spent an hour a week as a patient for a lot of years. He saw me every week for almost a year before he was willing to definitively make a bipolar diagnosis. (Then again, he was quite thorough all around. "I'm thinking about a med change. Let's talk about it today. Then I want you to go home and do some research of your own. Then we'll talk about it again and figure out where we're going.")

That's why I cringe when I see general practitioners diagnosing their patients with severe mental disorders and then prescribing tons of meds... it's not nearly as easy as it looks.

[Boozy]

I also think many young adults, eager to explain their lack of social grace and the odd thoughts and feelings swirling in their head, will read about this syndrome and identify with many of the symptoms, and therefore, will self-diagnose because it makes sense to them.

I agree with you.

You can't find a young adult who does not feel uncomfortable, different, sometimes isolated, confused about the world around them, and awkward in social situations. This is part of being human, and part of maturing.

Most people eventually become properly socialized. Some don't quite get there. It doesn't necessarily mean they have a some sort of disorder, its just who they are. Its okay to be yourself and have flaws. Everyone has flaws. I believe that diagnosis is called Human.

I have the tendency to be too loud at parties, to not know when to shut up, to misread people's polite nods as actual interest. I do not have Asperger's. I'm just annoying.

[Gurndigarn]

The exercise I mentioned is one I did for myself, and continue to do on an ad hoc basis. I don't know if I'm Aspie, and don't particularly care (except in that it might give me access to additional help, if I do get the label). What I do know is that I have to concentrate in social situations, and have to try to intellectually determine things that it seems most people can determine on a less intellectual level.

There's a pair of general rules here that I think apply:

1. If other people react to you in ways you don't want, then there are two possible solutions: everyone else needs to change, or you need to change. It's a lot easier to change yourself, so do so.
(Or accept that they'll continue to react in a way you don't like - and never complain about it, because it's your choice not to change.)

2. A diagnosis puts a label on you. This label is for the purpose of deciding how to improve your quality of life: it tells other medical people to try the techniques and tools that have worked on other people with your diagnosis. It also tells you where to go for help, and which books to read to learn how other people have coped with your diagnosis.
A diagnosis is not an excuse. It's a tool to use to work your way around the problems you have. Sure, in some cases it's impossible to get through life without some sort of assistance - a lower-limb paraplegic can't climb stairs, for instance - but where possible, the person with the diagnosis needs to try to work with what they've been given.

With a bit of modification to make it more generic, that is something that should be framed and placed prominently in every school. It wouldn't help some people who want to whine, but it might help their victims say "Yeah, you have a problem. What are you doing about it?" instead of "Whatever Your Problemness says."

D) Watch shows like Judge Judy, or even Jerry Springer. The interactions in these shows are more extreme than you'll normally see, but it's helpful to see the extremes at times.

Just keep in mind that they're extremes, and that sane people don't act like that. They distinctly aren't role models.

[Seshat]

With a bit of modification to make it more generic, that is something that should be framed and placed prominently in every school. It wouldn't help some people who want to whine, but it might help their victims say "Yeah, you have a problem. What are you doing about it?" instead of "Whatever Your Problemness says."

Um. Thank you.

[wagegoth]

I believe that ASDs have become more noticeable because of the increase in importance of engineers and computers in our society. The type of mind that does well in those fields seems to require a certain amount of this specialized wiring, and ASDs tend to run in families. Bill Gates is widely believed to be an Aspie.

It's true we can't go back and diagnose the dead, but many famous people in history have many symptoms and behaviors that would place them on the spectrum.

The biggest problem is finding the proper person to make the diagnosis. When it was believed that ASDs were the result of "refrigerator mothers," diagnoses were made by psychologists and psychiatrists. That's often still the case. However, neurologists are starting to make the diagnoses based on the structure of the brain, as there seem to be consistent developmental differences among people on the spectrum.

There is almost definitely a genetic basis, but it may well be affected by environment, including pollution exposure by the expectant mother. As more is learned, it appears that ASDs are actually part of a necessary neurodiversity for the human species. It also appears that it occurs equally as often in females as males, females adapting, and not being diagnosed, due to better social interaction from the higher level of aural learning among females.

It's true that a lot of people would rather have their children diagnosed with an ASD than to deal with reality, but a lot of children on the spectrum only need some help, not a lot, and getting this diagnosis can help get them the assistance they need, even if it's something as minor as posting a classroom schedule with start and stop times. It's also true that some parents abuse the diagnosis, demanding assistance that has not been proven to help and costing the schools huge sums of money that would better be spent elsewhere.

I don't know how old the OP is, but a lot of young men, aspies or not, don't get the signals that a woman isn't interested. The way in which he speaks in his posts may indicate someone on the spectrum, but that doesn't mean it does. If he wasn't diagnosed, he probably did not receive the extra time and attention that would have helped him in social situations. He may have realized that she wasn't interested in dating, but thought that it was okay to still be friendly with her, not realizing that she simply didn't want his company at all. Frankly, a lot of women don't make it clear that they aren't interested. If the girl had been more more straightforward and honest with the OP, it might have saved him a meeting with his manager.

In the future, I'm sure the OP will keep what happened in mind and not repeat the behavior.

[HALFHUMANHALFZOMBIE]

In case anyone is wondering I definately have aspergers. Even my doctor said I had it and Psychologists seems to find that I can overcome it very well. In my opinion I refuse to communicate to people through body language not that I don't or do understand it. I was autistic as a child and overcome it.

[Banrion]

I think that there are many children being inaccurately diagnosed.
They fit many of the important criteria, so the label gets slapped on there, but upon further research or using different methods, the child will suddenly make remarkable progress with only a very few remaining problems.

I also think many young adults, eager to explain their lack of social grace and the odd thoughts and feelings swirling in their head, will read about this syndrome and identify with many of the symptoms, and therefore, will self-diagnose because it makes sense to them.

There are way too many statistics and data available to show the increase, that continuing to say it doesn't exist would be foolish, but I also feel there are just too many people who feel that the label is important to excuse away boorish or bad behaviour in social settings.

I agree, right now, Aspergers is the current psychological trendy thing. Just like in the 70's everyone was schizophrenic, or in the 90's everyone was ADD/ADHD. Yes, these are real problems that people have, but they are no where near the rate that it is being diagnosed at. Unfortunately, all the bogus diagnosises be they a professional prematurely jumping to conclusions or self-diagnosis, only make life harder on those who are truly suffering with the problem.

I have seen both sides of the story first hand. In college I was having a rough time, and in less than 15 minutes, a "psychologist" had determined that I was chronically depressed and had me on 3 prescriptions, an SSRI for the depression itself, and 2 sleeping meds. Yep the perfect thing to give someone who has said that sometimes they think things would be easier if it was all over. Not only did he give me 2 sleeping meds, but he wrote them as 3 month supplies so that I could mail order them. Yep, suicide in a bottle if I ever decided to go that far.

On the other hand, my brother is ADHD. He was diagnosed when he was 7 years old. His psychologist did put him on medication so that he had some immediate help with school and didn't get held back again, but medications was not the end of treatment, it was simply the beginning. My brother spend 3 afternoons a week for the next 5 years in therapy, using biofeedback machines to learn to control his impulses himself. By the time he was 15 he had been weened off the medication, and self control was up to him. Even now, he admits that he still sometimes has trouble with it, and will lose focus or make a rash decision, but he knows he is ultimately the one responsible for his behavior.

[Seshat]

In my opinion I refuse to communicate to people through body language not that I don't or do understand it.

If that's a conscious decision you've made, then you will find that it has consequences. Some of those consequences will be severe. And if you've chosen to live that way, you'll have to live with the consequences.

If you're trying to communicate to us that your mind just doesn't seem to 'get' body language, then you're going to need to work with your medical team to either learn how to communicate through body language, or how to work around an inability to do so. If you choose not to try, you'll suffer the same severe social consequences as above.


Oh, and once you've got the body language issue down, talk with your psychologist about indirect speech. That's another one that's TONS of fun to try to figure out.

[JuniorMintz]

If that's a conscious decision you've made, then you will find that it has consequences. Some of those consequences will be severe. And if you've chosen to live that way, you'll have to live with the consequences.

If you're trying to communicate to us that your mind just doesn't seem to 'get' body language, then you're going to need to work with your medical team to either learn how to communicate through body language, or how to work around an inability to do so. If you choose not to try, you'll suffer the same severe social consequences as above.

Quoted for emphasis. Seshat said *exactly* what I was about to.

[HALFHUMANHALFZOMBIE]

If that's a conscious decision you've made, then you will find that it has consequences. Some of those consequences will be severe. And if you've chosen to live that way, you'll have to live with the consequences.

If you're trying to communicate to us that your mind just doesn't seem to 'get' body language, then you're going to need to work with your medical team to either learn how to communicate through body language, or how to work around an inability to do so. If you choose not to try, you'll suffer the same severe social consequences as above.


Oh, and once you've got the body language issue down, talk with your psychologist about indirect speech. That's another one that's TONS of fun to try to figure out.

It must be difficult to read people through body language for me but that's how society works and I must accept that. It's very difficult for me in general to read people and accept how they without verbal communication but I find it very challenging to communicate with girls. I find maybe if they wave at me, say hi or smile at me then it seems easier to approach them. I can't seem to ask girls out too well. especially when they don't know english too well but when you say "some other time" and they say "yes" they don't mean yes, and that's very frustrating why don't they say "no" altogether. If any of you are familiar with Facebook.com I'm trying to add a girl on my friends list who I gave a fabulous birthday gift to and worked hard to get everyone at work to sign her card a long time ago but she refuses to do so and I find that very hurtful. Aspies need to be treated with respect with no negative remarks or consequences. It's difficult for me to find female friends to hang out with just because I'm difficult to socialize with. If anyone disagrees with my statement please PM me.

[Rapscallion]

but I find it very challenging to communicate with girls.

Nah, that just means you're male like the rest of us. I've had many women saying they don't understand women, so the rest of us have no chance

Aspies need to be treated with respect

I thought the golden rule was that everyone was supposed to be treated with respect. Shouldn't be any special treatment for any group on that score.

Rapscallion

[Barefootgirl]

I agree that Aspies need to be treated with respect - no-one should be teased or made fun of jsut because of a disorder - but the problem with having an "invisible disorder" like Aspergers Syndrome, or schizophrenia, is that no-one else knows you suffer from it.

I think what you are actually asking for is not so much respect as accomodations.

You are hoping, either consciously or sub-consciously, for other people to take into account that you have these problems with interactions and make accomodations for your behaviour accordingly. Unfortunately, since i assume you don't walk around wearing a t-shirt with "I have Aspergers" on the front, all anyone else sees is a rather peculiar chap who won't take no for an answer, and can thus be seen as rather threatening by normal standards of behaviour.

So, since you are the one whose behaviour deviates from the norm, you are the one who is going to have to find ways of coping with it, otherwise situations like the one you have described are likely to happen over and over, and could potentially get you into a lot of trouble. Do you work with a therapist or a peer support group, who can help you find ways to manage social interaction more appropriately?

[Seshat]

This is verging on moving to off-topic, and/or fratching. If anyone wants to continue along this thread, please leave a note in this topic that it's moving and respond to me there.

It must be difficult to read people through body language for me but that's how society works and I must accept that.

Yes. That's what I was trying to get at. I'm glad you realise this.

It's very difficult for me in general to read people and accept how they without verbal communication but I find it very challenging to communicate with girls.

On one level, females are just males with an extra arm to one chromosome.

However, female children get socialised differently from male children. This means that the younger a female is, the more likely she is to only know the 'female' and the 'child' communication tools* for the culture she was raised in. Of course, males have the same problem - young males only know the 'male' and 'child' communication tools.

As we get older, we add 'adult' communication tools, and we learn the other gender's tools. So communicating gets easier.

* By communication tools, I mean every form of human communication: not just speech, but how you say things. Body language. The type of joke each gender is 'allowed' to make. The fact that boys are 'allowed' to fart and fight, but not to gossip; and girls are 'allowed' to gossip and be snide, but not to fart, and only to fight in a limited manner.
There's a wide, wide range of communication tools, and some are socially designated for one or the other gender.

I find maybe if they wave at me, say hi or smile at me then it seems easier to approach them.

That's because they've given you a social signal that they're willing to communicate with you. See? You do speak body language!

I can't seem to ask girls out too well. especially when they don't know english too well but when you say "some other time" and they say "yes" they don't mean yes, and that's very frustrating why don't they say "no" altogether.

Because females are socially punished when they don't "save face" for men. Girls are trained, especially in high school, not to give a blunt 'no' to a male who is considered socially acceptable to her peer group. As women get older, we typically start to question our training - but a female who's only a little out of high school is likely to not yet be questioning the 'need' to 'protect a man's feelings'.

Society is changing, and is gradually eliminating the gender divide in communication tools and in rules. But it's very slow work, and you're going to have to expect girls of your (apparent) age to act and react a lot like the girls in teenage movies. Their communication tools are still based in high school, and until they grow older, have more life experience, and learn more tools and techniques, they'll have a limited set of tools to work with.

If any of you are familiar with Facebook.com I'm trying to add a girl on my friends list who I gave a fabulous birthday gift to and worked hard to get everyone at work to sign her card a long time ago but she refuses to do so and I find that very hurtful.

There are two things here.

1. She may not want to be your friend. Or she may be happy to be your friend IRL, but just doesn't want a long list of Facebook friends. It's her Facebook listing. It's her life.

Do you feel you 'should' be her friend? Do you feel you 'earned' her friendship, or her Facebook listing? Newsflash: she decides who her friends are. Not you.

By the same token: you decide who your friends are. Wouldn't it be creepy if someone tried to tell you otherwise? That they 'belong' as your friend? That you have to be their friend, for some reason or other?

The offer of friendship always includes the risk of being turned down. It's the way of things. Sometimes people turn you down for a reason that has to do with you. Much more often, it's to do with them.

Me, for instance: I keep very few friends. About five. I'm very, very sick, and I simply can't maintain more friendships than that without dropping other things in my life - like my medical treatment. Sometimes I turn down friendships with people who would probably enrich my life greatly. I know that and regret it, but it's just how I have to live until I get my medical problems resolved.

Sometimes people turn down a friendship simply because the potential friend lives inconveniently far away. Or the potential friend's laugh reminds them of the uncle who always got drunk on Thanksgiving and ruined it for everyone. Or maybe they just don't want to make friends today. Or the potential friend just doesn't share their interests.

Occasionally people turn down a friendship because they just don't like the potential friend. That's okay too.

There are people in the world who will like you, and have the time and interest to be your friend. You just have to find them.

2. Girls interpret your communications based on what they've learned in their lives. They don't know any other way to do it! Just like you don't always understand their communications.
She may or may not know that you worked hard to get everyone to sign her card. If she does, she may or may not appreciate it. I don't know.
What I do know is that if you gave her a gift that was out of proportion to what she perceived your relationship as, that's scary to her. She doesn't know how to interpret it - for all she knows, it means that you want more from her than she's prepared to give you. For all she knows, you think she owes you something for that gift.

Now, what I'm going to tell you is an explanation of why women are often wary of expensive, fabulous gifts. It is NOT an accusation against you, it's an explanation of women's perceptions. Okay?

Unfortunately, some men do give women expensive gifts, then push themselves hard on women, telling the woman that she 'owes him'. Some will force themselves on her, raping her and justifying it because she 'accepted the gift' and therefore 'owes it to him'.
Stalkers also tend to give women gifts out of proportion to the woman's perception of the relationship.
Some women do this too, to men.
Because some people suck, it ruins it for all everyone.

Aspies need to be treated with respect with no negative remarks or consequences.

Aspies are people. So is everyone else. As Barefootgirl says, you don't have a tattoo on your forehead saying 'I'm Aspie. Treat me differently.' Even if you did, I wouldn't treat you any differently from anyone else. (But then, I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and ask people to clarify ambiguous communications.)
Based on what you've told us, you're not being treated with disrespect. You're being treated like everyone else would be, who acted the way you're acting.

It's difficult for me to find female friends to hang out with just because I'm difficult to socialize with. If anyone disagrees with my statement please PM me.

It's difficult for you to find female friends to hang out with because:
a) you're acting like any young male who hasn't yet realised that young females have a different set of social tools. (I've had this same conversation with a LOT of young males, Aspie and otherwise.)

b) looking specifically for female friends makes girls jumpy. Men looking specifically for women aren't usually looking for friendship - they're looking for sex. But many of them say they're looking for friendship, and pull out the moves later. (If you think it irritates you, imagine what it's like for us!)

You'll have a lot more luck simply joining a mixed group that has interests you share. Join a club! Make friends with both the guys and the girls in the club. Just make friends, and ignore the gender.

People are PEOPLE. The extra (or missing) arm on a single chromosome doesn't change that. Friends are equally valuable regardless of the chromosomes we carry.

(Of course, if your interest in making female friends is about more than simple friendship, then that'll require a different set of advice.)

[Boozy]

Because females are socially punished when they don't "save face" for men. Girls are trained, especially in high school, not to give a blunt 'no' to a male who is considered socially acceptable to her peer group. As women get older, we typically start to question our training - but a female who's only a little out of high school is likely to not yet be questioning the 'need' to 'protect a man's feelings'.

Here is the best piece of advice that my father ever gave me:

"If a boy asks you out, and you don't want to date him, just say 'No thanks, I'm flattered but I'd rather not.' If they ask for a reason, just say 'I'm not interested.' If they continue to bug you for a reason, then they're frankly asking to be hurt. But I'd be surprised if it ever went that far."

That piece of advice saved me so much trouble. All my friends had problems with guys "not taking the hint"....because they had never been rejected outright, they thought they'd just need to try harder. Being blunt (but polite) saves the guy's feelings in the long run, too. Like pulling off a band-aid, its better to do it quickly instead of dragging the whole thing out.

All teenagers seem to be weak at picking up social cues, Asperger's or not. It does get easier when you get older.