What do I do now?

[Discourtesy Clerk]

Sorry, I'm tired, this isn't gonna run together so smoothly, and it will be long, so bear with me, it does have a point...

I'm going to apply for a new job...a non-Suckway job that's hopefully still grocery in nature, but smaller, because I've had about enough of the politics, the bitching, the scheduling fuckups, the backstabbing, and the general air of childishness that mucks the place up. That's all been building up for months now, and the way I was treated by management today was just about the last straw. (Basically, I was "asked" to do something that was WAY outside the scope of my job description, as determined by union and corporate, and the FEM went completely apeshit superbitch on me because I politely declined. Still don't know why, but she's now on the warpath to my my work life pure hell.)

So anyway. I have the first application, I'm going out to get more tomorrow, and as soon as I can get a hold of my wonderful ex-managers that think I'm awesome so they can be my references, I'm gonna tell Boss Lady to stuff herself that I no longer wish to work for her store as I have found more favourable employment elsewhere. Then based on her reaction, will or will not check the "May contact this employer" box, turn these suckers in, and hope for the best.

Only one problem. The real reasons I have for jumping ship are very justified indeed (Hmmm...not happy being abused by employer? My co-workers act like they're 3? The FEM is a bitchtoad? Pay stinks? Hours stink? Cleaning feces off the toilet stinks?), but they would look HORRIBLE on an app any way I can think to phrase it. (Especially the above... )

So my question is, for those of you who've done this many times before, what do I call my reason for leaving on the app and in the interview? What angle is best to take? Do I just practice a convincing run of BS that makes everybody sound good, or do I tell the truth, watered down and diplomatically? The job I have now is my first, which means I have a lot of experience with the work, but not with how to get it. My interview for this job was sheer dumb luck, I realised this as soon I saw just how low Boss Lady's hiring standards are.

That's why I need your help. ANYBODY'S help. I'd especially like to hear from people who interview hires themselves. I'm young. I'm green. I do not know what the flip I am doing.

Also, other questions: Is it considered acceptable to use a co-worker who holds a higher position, but who isn't management, as a work reference, or is it just direct superiors? Is it really bad if you put on the app NOT to contact the old employer? What kinds of things, besides the painfully obvious, would typically get an app tossed? And when is the best time and way to tell the old boss, "Have a nice life" so that she doesn't boot my ass before I get the new job secured and badmouth me to the prospective new bosses?

...

[DarthRetard]

Well, the way I phrased mine, was that I felt like I wasn't being utilised to the extent of my abilities. Try to just make it sound like they're a fine company, and that it's just not for you. If they ask you to be more specific and provide situations, explain a couple stories if you must about some of the things that you didnt feel were appropriate for your talents and skills.

Reason being, is theyre gonna call them, and ask about how you were as an employee and such.

Basically, just explain that you're looking to further your career in such and such, and that you feel it's time to move on to something with more room to grow, etc etc.

Hope that helps.

[BlaqueKatt]

if you are in the US-it's pretty much illegal for them to ask anything further than "did person x work there from this date to this date?" with as lawsuit happy as this country is there have been several court cases about job references.

[Luna]

From having been interviewed myself and being one who interviews many:

1) be honest but in a diplomatic way. When asked, explain that you do like your job - but you feel as if you aren't allowed to do everything you know you can. Briefly explain how you feel held back, briefly explain how you want to work in an environment that supports and promotes it's employees. It's easier to describe what you are looking for in a job to the person, than it is to describe the horrible working conditions you are in. You aren’t lying, you are stating what you want and need as a human. And in doing so, you are stating that since you want this - this is not what you have - so the interviewer can assume where you are coming from. Diplomacy.

2)Have ready examples of great things you have done. Examples you have set. Things you changed or enhanced that made work better. Even if everyone else got pissed that you were doing them. Show your prospective employer that you can offer them greatness that someone else is (stupidly) going to lose out on. Their loss, your gain - both you and possible new employer.

3)Do not talk bad about old employers, as much as you want to. Turn those questions instead into, well - I want to be valued for my great work and I want to find a company who isn't afraid to do that. In this, you're saying you aren't currently valued, and you're telling the interviewer what you expect up front from their company.

4) Ask questions about the company when they say "Do you have questions for me/us?" ask things like: What made you decide to work here? What do you like best about working here? What is the typical day like? How long has the company been around?

If they are uncomfortable about answering those questions, or can't really answer them for you - I wouldn't bother working there b/c it probably isn't a nice place to work. I would continue on the search.

As far as resignation goes, if you're in a union I'm not sure if there are extra rules. Just talk to whoever the boss is and let them know you've enjoyed your stay but unfortunately you've decided to move on. That's all. They may want a letter of resignation. This is to ensure you can't claim you were fired at a later date and try to collect unemployment.

Hope this helps. good luck in your search and let us know how it goes.

[Arachne]

In the US, it's very dangerous to give employees bad reviews to future employers, even if they deserve it. You open yourself up for all sorts of legal trouble. Along those lines, an amusing little story:

A while back, I got a call from someone who ran a small clothing store, asking for references on a former employee who'd put us down as a reference. I didn't know anything about the employee, as she was before my time, so I gave my boss a call to ask her about it. She told me to call the woman back right that moment and tell her not to hire this person, as this was the only person she ever had to fire. (Knowing some of the things that have gone on where I work, it takes a LOT to get fired here.) Once she told me a couple of stories, my mind filled in the blanks with stories old co-workers and long time customers told. Not only did this woman randomly not show up for work, do really bad work when she was there, and sometimes flat-out refuse to work, she also had a surly attitude and cursed at the customers. A lot.

My boss is the kind of person who doesn't hear you when you warn about things like lawsuits ("But it's true! Every word of it! So you can tell them!"), so I just assured her I'd handle it and she didn't need to worry about it anymore. Then I called the lady back, and we had this conversation:

Me: Hi, this is Arachne calling back from MyStore about Old Employee. I talked to my boss, and she confirmed that Old Employee did work here from date until date.

Her: Okay. You know that Old Employee put you down as a reference?

Me: *flatly, but friendly* I'm aware. What I've told you is all my boss wants me to say about her.

Her: *thoughtful pause* Oh. That bad, huh?

Me: *cheerfully* All I can do is confirm that Old Employee worked here from date until date. I hope that information is helpful to you?

Her: Yes. Very much so. Thank you SO MUCH.

Best part? EVERY bit of information I conveyed was in the inflection. Even if it got back to her that she didn't get the job because of what we said about her, she could never prove it.

What I don't get is: Why in heaven's name would you put down the name of someone who FIRED you as a reference on a job application? Why? Better to have no references at all than something like that. All I can figure is that she's been fired from every job she's worked, and my boss is the person who was the least vein-bulgingly angry at her when she left. Heck, maybe she thinks that being fired is the normal way for someone to leave a job.

[Banrion]

Actually there are 2 questions that former employers can answer without getting into any trouble.
1) Did employee work for you, and how long?
2) Is this employee eligible for rehire?


You don't have to give any details, but a simple no to the rehire question is ususally enough.

[Discourtesy Clerk]

Thanks a ton for all the advice. I didn't know that about the references - I was under the impression that they could be asked a lot more. I've decided to stay with this job a bit longer, seeing as MOST of the people I work with are awesome and it's just mainly that one boss, but the applications are still sitting on my desk, so we'll see.

*sigh* Work politics...such a pain.

[Gurndigarn]

Thanks a ton for all the advice. I didn't know that about the references - I was under the impression that they could be asked a lot more. I've decided to stay with this job a bit longer, seeing as MOST of the people I work with are awesome and it's just mainly that one boss, but the applications are still sitting on my desk, so we'll see.

*sigh* Work politics...such a pain.

They can ask more... and those questions can be answered... but most places don't answer them. For varying reasons, most of which revolve around potential lawsuits, but also because, honestly, sometimes people leave/get hinted away/get fired for purely subjective reasons. Say, the employee just rubbed the DM wrong. Or the person got caught up in one of those let's-start-completely-over, and was the one good, reliable employee who got booted with all the scumbags. Or there was circumstantial evidence but not proof that the employee did something wrong, was was let go as a precautionary measure.

Are they good reasons to fire someone? Sometimes.

Are they justified reasons to fire someone? Sometimes.

Are they fair? Not usually. But they can be unfair and still be a good thing to do.

Are they lawsuit bait? Damn straight. Especially in large retail corporations, where managers get shuffled around regularly, and HR probably never met the person in question. So it's safer to say nothing.

That being said, as Arachne said, when you know the details, there are ways to warn others about potential issues by the way you say nothing. When someone becomes abrupt in their denial-of-information, that means you don't want this person within ten meters of your store.

[TNT]

I know a person who was on the receiving end of questions about his past employees. Since I wasn't there, I have no idea if this is true or not, but my friend swears it is. He says his conversations would go something like this:

New Employer: I'm calling about Mr. So-and-so.
Friend: Ah, yes, fine employee. None better.
New Employer: Great. Thank you.
Friend: Hmmmm....
New Employer: Is there something else?
Friend: No... I'm just reading this article that says you can tell if a person's an alcoholic by the coloring under their fingernails. Interesting. I'm sorry, I just got a little distracted. Anyhow, goodbye, and again, Mr. So-and-so is one fine employee.