Possibly Sucky...

[flybye023]

I'm posting this in Sightings as I don't know if it's actually sucky or not.

My mom works in x-ray in a small hospital. Several years ago, after a couple of incidents where a patient came in with a weapon (perfectly sane people, just happened to be carrying), my mom got a little nervous and complained and her higher-ups decided that yes, they would make a policy that no weapons would be allowed in the hospital. So...cue yesterday:

DS: Deputy Sheriff (or possibly Dip Shit); off duty btw.
XRT: Mom

**Man walks in to the department**

XRT: Take off your jacket, sir and we'll begin.
DS: Okay, but just so you know, you will see a gun when I take it off.
XRT: I'm sorry sir, but you'll have to reschedule then. Our policy is no weapons.
DS: WELL I'M A DEPUTY SHERIFF AND I'M ALLOWED TO CARRY A GUN! There's flat-out no way you're going to get it off me. And I'm NOT going to reschedule
XRT: ...well, we don't allow weapons so if you can wait a couple of minutes, I'll get Security and you can have them lock it up during the exam.
DS: No.
XRT:
DS: I have every right to keep my gun with me and it overrides any petty policy you guys have.

So now, my mom is on uncertain ground and can't contact anyone to ask so she just does the exam.

My question is though, do any of you guys know who was right here? Was the guy allowed to have his gun even though he was off-duty? Or should the hospital be able to call the shots on this one?

[jedimaster91]

I heard a story about an older patient that came in with a small concealed weapon and the staff just locked it up, which is a perfectly reasonable request. That deputy definitely seems like he was being a jerk, but he may not have wanted the liability of someone else handling his weapon (minds out of the gutter, please. I know you went there. ). Still, he could have been nicer about it. Your mom should have called Security anyway. It's their job to enforce hospital policies. And if the hospital is a government building, he may not legally be allowed to have his gun if he's off-duty.

To avoid the argument about carrying policies in the future, just inform him that having the gun either on his person or in the room can screw with the images or the machines and he may end up having to reschedule anyway. If he leaves it on for an x-ray, there's going to be a nice, gun-shaped shadow on his pictures (depending on where the gun is and what he's getting x-rayed, of course). If he's going for an MRI....well, the MRI machine can make bullets out of pens, so his gun and ammo should be stored somewhere else for safety reasons. Preferably at home in a gun safe.

[Teskeria]

In most locations, cops (of any type including sheriffs, deputies and the like) are required to keep their guns in a gun safe when off duty. the best way to handle the situation, is to have Security call the Sheriff's office, let them know without naming names, exactly what happened and ask if they REQUIRE the deputies to keep their guns on them. Also ask if Security can lock the gun up while the officer is being examined. If the Sheriff says the hospital has that right, ask them to fax that information to the Security department. Next time an officer can't let go of his faux penis (those with real ones don't throw such a fuss), call Security, who will bring a copy of this fax from the officer's boss. He still refuses, offer to call the sheriff and give the sheriff his name and that he is refusing. should resolve the issue quickly.

[KitterCat]

Per Federal law since 9/11 officers are allowed to carry their weapons any where in the country except in federal or state buildings. Even if they are off duty or retired they are not required to give up their weapons. They are after all suppose to be the first line of defense from criminals. Even prior to 9/11 it depended from state to state as to wither an officer was to be carrying at all times, have easy access at all times or keep it in a gun safe while off duty.

For once I actually have to side with the officer. He’s right, it is a petty policy if the hospital can not recognize the difference between law enforcement and their employees, never mind perfectly sane people who happen to be carrying. If he actually yelled at your mom, he didn’t use a very good way of informing her why he’s carrying, but past that I cant fault him.

[flybye023]

Oh, they recognized he was in law enforcement, he had his badge. The hospital policy does seem to state, however, no weapons, period. So, I guess it's more that the hospital will have to review/clarify their policy.

Otherwise, the guy was a jerk. His whole attitude was very challenging like "yeah, I have a gun what are YOU going to do about it" rather than being reasonable about it. He was very confrontational even before identifying himself as law enforcement.

[KitterCat]

Oh, they recognized he was in law enforcement, he had his badge. The hospital policy does seem to state, however, no weapons, period. So, I guess it's more that the hospital will have to review/clarify their policy..

Hospital policy can say you have to jump on your left foot in a circle, spit over your shoulder and beg to be let in the building for its employees, that doesn’t mean it countermands Federal law. In case your wondering that little ritual was used at my high school theater if you said the name “McBeth”. Had a very suppositious theater teacher there.

Otherwise, the guy was a jerk. His whole attitude was very challenging like "yeah, I have a gun what are YOU going to do about it" rather than being reasonable about it. He was very confrontational even before identifying himself as law enforcement.

Then it’s a case of small neither reign/big piece of “shock and awe”. I don’t like officers like that. They do more harm then good for public perceptions.

[dbuzman]

"I understand by law you we can not require you to not bring your weapon in the building, however I am not comfortable around guns. I will see if someone else can take care of you or you can have security secure your weapon or you can reschedule for a day when I'm not here."

[LillFilly]

I was going to ask if she knew he was really a law enforcement officer, but that was already answered. Some jerks will call themselves anything as an excuse to do stuff. However, he could have been more polite; sounds like a bit of power-tripping to me.

[Barracuda]

Depending on the area, his department's policy may have been that he is required to have his weapon handy at all times if he is in public, regardless of whether or not he's on duty so that he can respond if he happens upon a law enforcement situation. Some departments do have that policy, and it is non discretionary. While he may have been belligerent, I have to agree with his aim of keeping his weapon in this instance.

[Hobbs]

What I think is weird is that SF [Security Forces] aren't allowed to carry their weapons off-base. They do all the same jobs as civilian cops, and even the duties of an infantryman. We're not even allowed to carry our own weapons; has to be an issued M9.

Back OT: His tact was wrong, but his motivations and stance on policy was right.

[Amina516]

His stance and motivations are correct, however, the hospital is also correct in enforcing any policy they already have in place. He can go to a different hospital if he doesnt like it. I wouldve called security and let them handle it. Also, keep in mind any healthcare worker can excuse themselves from someones care if they feel the need.

[SuperDan]

Where I work, we're covered by a crapload of state laws that really only affect casinos. It is illegal in my state to carry a weapon aboard a gaming vessel. Once you cross the boarding ramp, you must check your weapon with house security or leave. Law enforcement or not. The only exception is officers of the state gaming commission (which is a branch of the state police) who carry mini glocks as part of their job. The gaming commission has allowed us to also make an exception for on-duty local PD from our city only to go straight to the buffet to eat and straight back out. Other cities, county officers, even state police not part of the gaming commission need to check their weapon upon boarding the vessel, per state law.

Not to say weapons don't get in. Some people just don't know the law, and conceal well enough that they aren't spotted. If security does spot someone on the vessel with a weapon, they just ask them to check it and inform them of the law, there are usually no problems.

Recently we held a fundraiser poker tournament for the family of a fallen officer in Chicago. Our director of security wrote to the CPD in advance directing them to strongly discourage their officers from bringing weapons, as our weapons locker couldn't possibly hold the hundreds of weapons that could be carried in, and informed them of the law. While I'm not security so I might not necessarily have known if there were problems, I've not heard of any.

[Canarr]

Per Federal law since 9/11 officers are allowed to carry their weapons any where in the country except in federal or state buildings.

Where I work, we're covered by a crapload of state laws that really only affect casinos. It is illegal in my state to carry a weapon aboard a gaming vessel.

[SNIP]

Other cities, county officers, even state police not part of the gaming commission need to check their weapon upon boarding the vessel, per state law.

Okay, I'm curious how that works. Doesn't Federal law trump state law? Or do gaming vessels count as federal or state building?

[EricKei]

Well, I suppose the casino might be able to invoke the ability to "refuse service to anyone they choose" if the officer is (a) OFF duty and (b) NOT acting in any official capacity whatsoever, as that would make them more or less ordinary customers like anyone else...If they are not allowed inside at all, it may be a loophole, as they are technically not preventing them from packing "in the casino" if they never actually enter the casino.

Back to the OT -- The officer should have identified himself right away before revealing his weapon (I'm not clear on whether he did or not).

[DGoddessChardonnay]

If you wish to discuss state vs. federal laws, please take that to Fratching where it will be more appropriate.

If you want to discuss the sucky behavior involved in the OP, then cool.

Any more discussions that need to go to Fratching will result in this thread being shut down and infractions given.