Stupid "Star Wars" questions...

[mjr]

These are (hopefully) non-spoiler questions...but I'd like to discuss these things with people who know more about the franchise and it's canon than I do...

1. In "Revenge..." when Vader is getting his armor, why does he have to be conscious? At least during the parts we're shown? If Vader is, as Obi Wan said in "A New Hope", "more machine than man", wouldn't he need to be unconscious during some of the surgery?

2. What exactly would Anakin's title have been? If Padme was a queen (especially since Leia was a princess), would that make Anakin a prince, or a King Consort?

3. If the "Rule of Two" applies, what would have happened to Vader if Luke had turned to the Dark Side and become Palpatine's apprentice? Would Luke have had to kill Vader, or would Palpatine have done it, or what?

4. Was Palpatine somewhat willing Vader to live? In ROTJ, Vader emphasizes "must" when he says to Luke "I must obey my master". Did Vader face some sort of punishment if he didn't obey?

I think that covers it for now...

Yeah, I know it's Sci-Fi...but I'm curious...

[Jay 2K Winger]

1. This is a good question, but I think the reason he was awake was down to bad writing/directing.

2. Anakin's title would have been "Mister." The Queen of Naboo was an ELECTED position, not a hereditary one. She was no longer Queen by the time they married. She was a Senator. Leia was a princess because she was adopted by the royal family of Alderaan.

3. I like the theory put forth by the "Force Unleashed" video games that Palpatine would have discarded Vader as a "broken" apprentice (in that he was more machine than man) in favor of Luke, and probably that he would have driven Luke to kill Vader as a way of breaking Luke psychologically to suit Palpatine's needs.

4. It's likely that Vader would have been punished by Palpatine if he'd disobeyed, but I think the main reason he said he "must" obey his master is because he felt trapped and there was no way he could overcome Palpatine's power.

[wolfie]

2. What exactly would Anakin's title have been? If Padme was a queen (especially since Leia was a princess), would that make Anakin a prince, or a King Consort?

While there are Queens Reigning (e.g. Victoria, or Elizabeth II) and Queens Consort (having the title "Queen" because they are married to the King, e.g. Elizabeth II's mother), "King Consort" is a depreciated term, with the preferred form being "Prince Consort". Anakin would most likely have been a "Prince of (whatever territory Padme was queen of)", or have been granted some other noble title, or both.

Fortunately, we have a couple examples on which all this could be based. Prince Phillip is a Prince of the United Kingdom, and is also the Duke of Edinburgh. Queen Victoria's husband Albert was granted the title Prince Consort. Note that in both cases, the titles were explicitly granted - a queen's husband (at least in Britain) does not automatically gain a title.

[mjr]

1. This is a good question, but I think the reason he was awake was down to bad writing/directing.

That's a good point. Especially with my understanding of the amount of surgery/modifications that Vader underwent. He would have needed to be unconscious for a good deal of it, especially when he was getting the electronics embedded and part of his spinal column replaced.

2. Anakin's title would have been "Mister." The Queen of Naboo was an ELECTED position, not a hereditary one. She was no longer Queen by the time they married. She was a Senator. Leia was a princess because she was adopted by the royal family of Alderaan.

An elected queen...I completely forgot about that.

Another thing that I chalk up to "plot holes" and/or "bad writing" is that Vader had ample opportunity several times to kill Luke. And he didn't. It seems like Palpatine's ultimate goal was to either turn Luke, or kill him.

I guess it's because Vader, even after all that time, hadn't completely turned.

[EricKei]

For #1, I think it was a matter of Palpatine wanting Vader to associate suffering with his new duds -- after all, the suit is already a constant reminder of his own failures and his own weakness. By emphasizing V's weakness, P thereby gives him further reason to stay with P and obey P's orders/train in order to become stronger in the Force. By exposing him to this excruciating pain, P weakens V psychologically even further, thus helping to cement his control over his apprentice. Remember, a huge part of deciding who is the Master in such a relationship is "who is afraid of whom." Also, Palpatine is a bit of a dick.

On a side note -- While this may only apply to the pnp RPG -- Sith-class characters have access to ALL of the potential Force powers that exist; it's the bad things they do with them that make them so evil. The net result of using them so often is that all of their powers get stronger and stronger the further they progress towards the "dark" end of the alignment meter. By this logic, Pal would have had access to healing Force powers that are strong enough to keep V alive, fully aware, and conscious -- if likely still paralyzed -- the whole time by virtue of constant, selective healing. As for why he would go to the trouble of using "good" powers like that...? It's the end result that matters. See prior comment about him being a dick

On #3 -- IIRC, That was not considered more than theory even before that Lucas guy declared the entire EU non-canon ...But if we take it as writ, yeah, I think J2KW nailed it.

To build on that: Either Luke would a) kill Vader (Luke is P's new apprentice), b) die trying (no real change, except it further breaks Vader's mind, making him even more malleable), or c) Luke kills the emperor instead (gives V an "in," screwing with his mind and allowing V to take over as the new master with Luke as his apprentice/co-ruler).

Vader had ample opportunity several times to kill Luke.

Well, sure. He just either didn't want to, or was following orders to bring him in alive. If we presume that the Stormtroopers were given that same instruction, it would explain why experienced soldiers who "are so precise" would miss him every damn time -- they were missing him on purpose.

[mjr]

On a side note -- While this may only apply to the pnp RPG -- Sith-class characters have access to ALL of the potential Force powers that exist; it's the bad things they do with them that make them so evil. The net result of using them so often is that all of their powers get stronger and stronger the further they progress towards the "dark" end of the alignment meter.

To this point, based upon the (minimal) research I have done, the Jedi also had full access to the Force powers (i.e. Force Lightning). They simply chose not to use them, because that would start to lead them down the path of the Dark Side.

Also, I understand that the "finishing strike" that Obi-Wan gave to Vader on Mustafar was actually a "Sith" type move with the light saber.

Well, sure. He just either didn't want to, or was following orders to bring him in alive.

That is possible, but did he have those orders during "Empire..." or was that a ROTJ thing? Because they had a saber duel at Cloud City.

But it is possible Vader (since he knew at that time he was Luke's father) didn't want to kill Luke.

If we presume that the Stormtroopers were given that same instruction, it would explain why experienced soldiers who "are so precise" would miss him every damn time -- they were missing him on purpose.

They seemed pretty adept at missing most of what they shot at.

[EricKei]

That is possible, but did he have those orders during "Empire..." or was that a ROTJ thing? Because they had a saber duel at Cloud City.

Well, whether V and P knew that L was his son or not up until CC, they would have been able to sense that he was OP in the Force, so they would have wanted him alive anyway, so as to corrupt him. As for the duel -- You've got a rank amateur (or slightly better) in Luke vs a Wizard-class lightsaber fencer (think Inigo Montoya) in Vader ....Had he intended to waste Luke, V could easily have ended the fight in about 2 swings just to be done with it.

For Obi-Wan's fighting strike -- Aye. It may have been a move from a combat Form he'd seen before. Perhaps one that an old apprentice of his might have known... My guess is that using moves from a given Form aren't considered automatically light or dark side. IIRC, Mace Windu used a Form typically considered "dark/evil/corrupt," and he was *technically* a good guy.

[Jay 2K Winger]

They seemed pretty adept at missing most of what they shot at.

I was watching Ep IV this weekend and I had to burst out laughing when Obi-Wan pointed to the sandcrawler and noted, "Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise."

[mjr]

I was watching Ep IV this weekend and I had to burst out laughing when Obi-Wan pointed to the sandcrawler and noted, "Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise."

I chuckled to myself at that line, too. And I hope the writers realize the irony in having Obi-Wan say, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", while doing the same himself.

[lordlundar]

As far as #3 goes, Sidious was doing to Luke what he had done to Anakin. IE he was having Luke execute Vader as his final turn to the dark side. He did it with Anakin at the start of Episode 3 where he had Anakin execute Dooku. It's just in RotJ Luke refused to do so and so Sidious tried to kill Luke.

And the whole "there is always two" IS a part of Canon. During the Pyre scene at the end of Episode 1 Mace Windu mentioned it as they were wondering who Maul's master was.

For number 4, It wasn't that Vader was trapped by Palpatine, but he was trapped by his own choices. He had been a Sith for so long he didn't know any life outside of it.

[dendawg]

He had been a Sith for so long he didn't know any life outside of it.

He'd been spending most of his life living in an Imperial paradise.

[mjr]

For number 4, It wasn't that Vader was trapped by Palpatine, but he was trapped by his own choices. He had been a Sith for so long he didn't know any life outside of it.

Also, if I'm not mistaken here, Vader's suit needed regular maintenance. He may not have been able to get that if he "turned" on the Emperor.

[EricKei]

Could be. However, the guy built a droid from scratch. I think he could have figured it out.

[Rosco the Iroc]

[robot chicken]
"What the hell is an aluminum falcon"

[lordlundar]

Also, if I'm not mistaken here, Vader's suit needed regular maintenance. He may not have been able to get that if he "turned" on the Emperor.

Nah, there was nothing particularly special about Vader's Life support system apart from the imposing visual appearance.

You have to remember, the answer to the question on that lies in the discussion Luke had with Vader on Endor when he turned himself over. Vader couldn't actually bring himself to betray Palpatine despite all of Lukes efforts to convince him otherwise. It was because Palpatine had put so much effort to convince Vader that there was no other option for him.

It's not a physical shackle that holds Vader, but a psychological one.

I chuckled to myself at that line, too. And I hope the writers realize the irony in having Obi-Wan say, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", while doing the same himself.

That line was not an oversight. That was the whole idea behind Anakin's betrayal. The Jedi's hypocrisy was being made apparent by Palpatine every time the two met up. Yes, the whole immortality thing was the final stroke, but there was s long line of mental conditioning going on to make Anakin betray the Jedi Order and a large part of it was the Jedi's own hubris.