I hate refunds

[spark]

I wish I never had to give them. It's not like a store, where I can just put a product back on the shelf. The money people give me is, directly, my paycheck, so giving a refund is basically handing back part of my paycheck for the week. And there is literally no way to set this up so that somebody doesn't get screwed, so in order to not completely fuck myself, I have to fuck my customer. <---(Edited to point out that this is the part I don't like. I don't WANT to fuck my customers, I like repeat customers and having a good reputation, that's very important to me! )

If you don't know, I make custom plushes, and also fursuits. So when somebody pays me to make something, some of the money goes to the supplies, and some (most) of the money goes to the time I spend sewing, but some of the money also goes to things like advertising, time I spend e-mailing customers to hash out the details of their projects, time and money I spend traveling to get supplies, ship things, the cost of repairing my ancient sewing machine, etc. All those expenses have to be paid, all that time has to be spent, and ordinarily I work that into my prices and I get paid and everything is good.

But when somebody wants a refund... *sigh* I still have used up all that time. (And usually I've bought supplies already too, that's generally the first thing I do when I get a payment.) If I give them a full refund, I will be screwing myself over! But once they've cancelled the project I won't be making their stuff, so they'll get nothing. So if I don't issue a full refund, I'll be screwing them over instead.

I'm not going to just screw myself, I'm not the one that suddenly realized spending the rent money on plush is a bad idea, or whatever the heck happened to make them suddenly need their money back! But it's really not good customer service to say "You get nothing at all, fuck off" when I'm keeping some of their money.

I end up compromising by making some little thing so they at least have something, usually a mini plush or a tail. It's not generally the value of their deposit, but it's not a "fuck you" either.

I just really wish that customers wouldn't put me in this situation. If you're living paycheck-to-paycheck, and any little thing going wrong can mean you suddenly don't have the funds to buy stupid stuff like plush, and in fact are broke enough to try and ask for your money back from your plush maker, I don't think it's financially responsible to be buying plush in the first place. So maybe you shouldn't! Then I wouldn't have to deal with this mess.

(Yeah, I'm kind of grouchy right now. I also wish the person who won my last e-bay auction would fricking PAY ME already, it ended on Friday.)

[Grendus]

Do you have cancellation terms in the order contract? That's probably the fairest way to deal with these situations, everybody gets what they've agreed on. It's sad that these people can't plan ahead or think about the livelihood of others though. Just one more reason .

[spark]

I have my policies on my website, but I don't do a "contract" as such.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

I think you should integrate a contract into your business dealings. We get all up in our resident Quilt Goddess' (*Kanalah*) grill about it, and you're pretty much in the same position as her. So, don't make us start to collectively get all up in your grill too.

[spark]

The entire point of this post is that all the little things I do besides sewing need to be paid for as well. I don't really want to spend time drawing up contracts! I have this stuff in my policites on my website. They're right there where everybody can see them. Unless somebody else wants to write them for me, AND get my customers to sign them for me, how is it worth my while to go to the extra effort that I won't be paid for? It's not going to stop customers pulling this shit, nothing stops customers from pulling shit. So what, exactly, will the contract do for me? Let my customers know something they should know already? Scare off customers who are suspicious of being asked to sign things? Add one more step to the process by making people tick some tickybox on something they're not going to read anyway?

The actual problem is the bit above, about how I kind of have to screw either the customer or me. A contract doesn't change that in any way, it just lays out the exact nature of the screwing. Which is already laid out on my website. And the kind of customer who's going to not read my terms on my website probably wouldn't read a contract either.

(Edited because I was getting a little too ranty. I am really *not* looking for a solution, I just wanted to vent a little. That's the purpose of the whole site, right?)

[Grendus]

Apologies. If you have them agreeing to the terms (that little checkbox that many sites use is at least supposed to be analogous to signing a contract) then you're actually already doing the "contract". Those people are just idiots and should have to wear a sign so you'd know to avoid taking jobs from them.

TBH, you're a lot nicer than I am. I'd refund them the value remaining in the contract (deposit minus time and materials) and put the job on hiatus until they either reorder or I had enough time to finish it and sell as general merchandise. These people are just jerks, don't let them get to you.

[spark]

How am I being nice? Hanging on their project forever in hopes that they turn up again or doing additional work in the hopes that somebody out there would want to buy it when they're done don't strike me as any better solutions.

And nobody here is being a jerk! Stupid yes, but a jerk no. Financial emergencies happen, and I wish people wouldn't spend money they don't really have on my stuff. But only sorta, because if nobody spent money they didn't really have on my stuff, I'm pretty sure I'd do a lot less business.

[Hyndis]

I'd suggest payment up front, no refunds. Make them sign a contract before beginning work, or at least get it in writing that payment is up front, no refunds.

Since you're working for yourself you don't have to do whatever the corporate pinheads want. Also since you're dealing mostly in services rather than in goods its a far different model than someone simply buying an object.

The actual materials are relatively cheap, I'd assume. The hard part, and the part you're charging for, is assembling the raw materials into something. This takes skill and experience, and this is something that the general population do not posses.

I could easily buy the materials to make something such as a fursuit, but if I attempted to make a finished product out of the raw materials, it would NOT be pretty.

So because most of the price would be for skilled labor, its a service. You can't refund a service. You can't give back time. It just doesn't work like that.


I think far too many people have been spoiled by large corporate chains that give refunds for any reason. People expect that everyone will give refunds, including even private sellers.

At my job we get this problem all the time as well. We're the manufacturer of products. We do not sell direct to end users. You want a refund? Contact the store you bought it from. They have your money. We only have about half your money. The store needs a profit margin.

People then throw an unholy fit over us not giving refunds. Its somehow both funny and sad at the same time.

[spark]

Eeek.

Yeah, having a policy of "no refunds, ever" is a way to get myself on pretty much everybody's blacklist!

What kind of person would just take somebody's money (and for a fursuit we're talking more than a thousand dollars!) and refuse to give any of it back if they didn't do any actual sewing?! That's called "theft" and there's no way I'd do that!

Even if you have it in some kind of contract, you can't get away with "I'll just take your money and give you nothing." EVEN if it were legal (which is dubious) I'd be destroying my reputation and ensuring that nobody would trust me ever again.

I just wanted to vent about a minor annoyance, this really is not the end of the world. Boo hoo, I'm being required to refund money I didn't earn. It's aggravating because there isn't any way to be completely, 100% fair to both me and my customers! That's my complaint in the first place, is that in order to not fuck myself over, I have to kind of screw the customer and I don't like screwing my customers. Stupid customers, why do they make me screw them?

[GooseCreek]

Hey Spark, I'm setting up a bakery and have been reading how decorators do their refunds (I think it's a similar situation). Basically if someone orders a cake (and signs their contract), they leave a deposit. If they cancel the cake within 3-5 business days, it's 100% refund. If it's between that and 1 month to the event, the refund would be the cost of materials *and* a set amount to compensate for the time, transportation, wear and tear that the decorator has experienced. If it's between 1 month before and the event, then no refund.

I know you weren't looking for solutions, but I thought you might be able to use this to set up a 'sliding scale' so that things are fair to both you and the customer! Hope this helps!
~J

[Gizmo]

It is that very odd place to be. I hate it from our company perspective, luckily I don't have to feel like its coming directly out of my own pocket! *hugs*

[Dreamstalker]

I think far too many people have been spoiled by large corporate chains that give refunds for any reason. People expect that everyone will give refunds, including even private sellers.

Exactly. Paypal and Ebay do nothing to dissuade this (Ebay has a new return policy where IIRC a buyer doesn't even need a reason to return something, and Paypal will hit a seller with an additional fee if they don't cheerfully refund).

This is why I no longer have custom jewelry listings on the selling site I use (I have a blurb saying "custom work available, contact for details"). I have a 30% nonrefundable deposit policy, and if an item is personalized (name) it's not returnable at all.

I'm still working on wording my general return policy; I do have a section of my 'booth' where I sell items on consignment for friends, and those items are not returnable. I've been burned before where a buyer gets an item, decides to test it (um, how do you 'test' a book?) and returns it in a non-sellable state.

ETA: Spark, that resin loonakit is adorable.

[spark]

ETA: Spark, that resin loonakit is adorable.

Thanks!

[sms001]

spark:

Venting and (minor ) ranting heard and understood! I especially feel you on the 'stoopid' front; luxuries should be last on the financial list. Very nice of you to make the tiny plush or tail, not just as a gesture, but I bet it reminds people of where they can go once they are caught up on the rent bills.

[Merriweather]

Not offering unneeded advice, but I will offer an opinion, for what it's worth. IMO, you aren't screwing your customers. You're trying to make a fair distribution of loss, even though the problem is at their end, not yours.

I'm pretty sure that simply placing the order would be a legally binding contract, but I get the impression it isn't the legallity but the morality (or karma) of the whole thing that's bothering you. IMHO, most people who worry about having to screw someone over aren't really doing so, as people who do that tend not to worry about it.

So from a "moral" point of view, they gave you money, which you in good faith used to purchase materials for their project. If you can't return those materials unused, or have started using them, then the money no longer exists to give them back, it was used in the way they asked for it to be used. And if you have started the work, then you spent your time as they asked, and as such, should be paid for it.

Changing their minds, for whatever reasons, doesn't alter the above - anyone ordeing a custom made item should be able to comprehend that backing out after the project has begun is not the same as returning an unwanted item to a department store.

By refunding even some of their money (truly fair would be deposit less material costs you can't get back on anything you can't use on other projects & less time spent working on the project, but I have the impression you usually refund more than that), and by sending them a small item, you are bending over backwards to be fair to the customer (even though the problem is at their end, not yours).

I really don't think there is any question about you screwing your customers over, they're getting much more than they are entittled to (especially as most cancellations, I'm sure, are because of poor financial decissions on their part, not because of major unexpected hardships). While I know it would feel better to be able to hand them their entire depostis back without blinking an eye, you are not "screwing them over" by trying to be fair to yourself as well.