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Snow is Slippery and other FUN FACTS!

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  • Snow is Slippery and other FUN FACTS!

    I got my license as soon as it was legal in my state and having scrimped and saved holiday money, paper route money and money from my first real job (which I also got as soon as I was legally able) I also bought my first car within weeks of getting my license. I've been driving for almost 20 years now so I have a few stories. Many of them involve snow.

    This time I am getting on a standard cloverleaf ramp connecting two major interstate highways. I think the recommended speed for the ramp is 30 MPH but as most people would realize when it is the beginning of a snowstorm, the snow is sticking to the road and the plows/sand trucks have not even made their first pass yet it might be a good idea to go slower than the recommended speed. Maybe quite a bit slower.

    The woman in front of me is not "most people". I can tell she is going too fast and I am certain that she is going to lose control of her car so I start tapping my breaks slowing down and preparing to come to a stop (and keeping an eye on the two cars behind me who are likewise following my lead and slowing down).

    As I am slowing the inevitable happens and she loses it. Her car starts to spin in circles as it continues down the thankfully relatively straight section of the cloverleaf. Both my car and her car come to a complete stop at about the same time. Her car is facing the wrong way about one car length in front of me so I have a clear view of her wide eyes that aren't seeing anything at the moment and her white knuckled death grip on the steering wheel.

    I tap my horn once getting her attention, smile and wave at her. She does a three point turn and continues on her way at an extremely reduced rate of speed.

    The moral of this story kids? Snow IS slippery. If you are driving in the snow...slow down.
    You'll find a slight squeeze on the hooter an excellent safety precaution, Miss Scrumptious.

  • #2
    I unfortunately learned snow is slippery the hard way. The very first car I got, I wrecked. See, my normal routine at the time was back out of my drive, turn, and speed to the end of the road, where it meets the road to the highway. Well, stupid me, I tried that when there was snow on the ground, got to the end of the road, and of course couldn't stop. I slid right out onto the road leading to the highway and got hit in the driver's side front fender. I did learn a lesson from it, and it's the one and only wreck I've had, aside from a suicidal deer deciding to throw itself against my car once. It just REALLY hurt to see them towing that car away, all beat up. The woman in the OP is lucky things ended the way they did, and not a lot worse!
    "And though she be but little, she is FIERCE!"--Shakespeare

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    • #3
      It was difficult to get a 20ish year old Nash Metropolitan going fast enough to have trouble in the snow

      I had a really zippy first car ... *sigh* But it was paid in full from the beginning!
      EVE Online: 99% of the time you sit around waiting for something to happen, but that 1% of action is what hooks people like crack, you don't get interviewed by the BBC for a WoW raid.

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      • #4
        For some reason on my way to work they decided to NOT PLOW OR SALT the ENTIRE HIGHWAY.

        So most of us, being rational human beings, were going about 25 to 35 down a major highway. I was just cruising along in my 4 wheel drive listening to music and jammin'. It was slippery but not too bad as some cars that obviously had 2 wheel drive were able to pass me in some places. But there is a place where the highway turns from one type of pavement to another. It even changes color. At this point I have to get into the passing lane so I do but it is obviously more slick in that area.

        A soccer-mom van (Like a Town-And-Country or something) is in the other lane in front of me. Loses control. Can't regain control because I'm sure nobody taught her how (that was one of the first things I learned was how to regain control of a sliding car without touching the brakes) and she SLAMS into the barrier on that side of the highway.

        If she had slid the other way that would have been ME. I just mumbled, "You're doing it wrong." And went to work. I learned how to regain control of a 1996 Chevy Tahoe in 2 wheel drive with my Dad on a crazy snowy road and even refresh my memory sometimes if there's a free snowed-up road and I'm 2 wheeling it in my Blazer. It's like riding a bike. You never forget. Could save your life.

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        • #5
          Quoth Gaki View Post
          I learned how to regain control of a 1996 Chevy Tahoe in 2 wheel drive with my Dad on a crazy snowy road and even refresh my memory sometimes if there's a free snowed-up road and I'm 2 wheeling it in my Blazer. It's like riding a bike. You never forget. Could save your life.
          So how do you do this? Is there a driving school that will teach you? G_d knows my own driving instructor never covered it, 23 years ago when I was learning.

          I've been looking at those Russian crash videos that have been all over YT lately, and it seems hardly anyone knows how: you see a car start fishtailing, just slightly, and next thing you know they're spinning all over the place.

          (Fellow Blazer owner ('88 S10). It's in the shop now. I'd been noticing the brakes haven't been that great lately. Finally they stopped working altogether and I took it in. One of the rear brake lines was rusted through (other one was replaced a couple years ago for the same thing). Also the rear axle is leaking oil into the brake drums. I guess things wear out after 225000 miles.)
          Last edited by Shalom; 03-22-2013, 08:35 PM.

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          • #6
            Quoth Shalom View Post
            Also the rear axle is leaking oil into the brake drums. I guess things wear out after 225000 miles.)
            Axle seals are a normal wear item. Be sure to replace the shoes - you can't (safely) wash the oil out of them with solvent, or "bake" it out.
            Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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            • #7
              Quoth Shalom View Post
              So how do you do this? Is there a driving school that will teach you?
              The basic technique is thus:

              1) Steer the car out of the skid. That means, if the nose is pointing to the left of the actual direction of travel, turn the wheel to the right to correct it - even if you want your direction of travel to move to the left. And vice versa. As a rule of thumb, start with a solid quarter-turn of the wheel in the appropriate direction, and then adjust as required. If the car starts skidding in the opposite direction, you may have overcorrected, so correct this new problem more carefully.

              2) Take your feet off the accelerator *and* the brake - especially if heavy braking or acceleration is what caused the problem in the first place. This maximises the traction available for steering. Do not take it out of gear or drop the clutch - that'll only get you into trouble again later when the transmission is suddenly re-engaged. Often, the drag of the engine is sufficient to reduce speed to a more manageable level, and it can be easier and safer to steer around a problem rather than try to stop before it.

              3) If you need to slow down a lot as well as regain directional control, use cadence braking. This means you press the brake to slow down, then release it to get traction for directional control, then press the brake again for slowing down, etc. Under normal road conditions in an ABS equipped car, the ABS will do this for you automatically (you'll feel the brake pedal pulsing under your foot), but in exceptional conditions the ABS may be insufficient.

              4) Practice the above on a skid pan, preferably *before* you encounter slippery conditions on the road. A proper skid pan may also be able to provide an instructor. If a professionally run skid pan isn't available, a properly frozen lake, a wet car park or a fallow field may serve as substitutes - but each substitute comes with it's own dangers which you should identify ahead of time. In any case, use the opportunity to learn what your car does in slippery conditions, and what it does when you apply corrective techniques, and also what it does when you do the *wrong* things. You should soon be able to recognise a problem early, and start correcting it before it becomes serious.

              The above techniques apply to front, rear, and four-wheel drive vehicles alike. You'll notice that none of them involve applying power, which is why that is so. Applying power in a skid is for advanced drivers *only* - ie. you must already have mastered the above instinctively.

              The difference between vehicle types usually has to do with whether they will understeer or oversteer, and therefore how often you will need to apply these techniques in adverse conditions.

              Front-heavy vehicles tend to understeer under braking and when coasting (the nose follows a straighter line than you are steering), and likewise front-wheel-drive vehicles tend to understeer under power, which is annoying but easy to control. Normal family cars tend to be both front-heavy and front-wheel-drive. Don't expect a vehicle that *normally* understeers to do so under *all* conditions, however - especially if the boot and back seats are heavily laden.

              Rear-heavy vehicles and rear-wheel-drive cars will tend to oversteer, meaning that the nose turns in *more* than you are steering - or rather the rear end slips out of line. Oversteer is usually what people mean by going out of control, because you have to actively work to correct it.

              Note that a front-heavy, rear-wheel-drive vehicle will tend to understeer when braking and coasting, and oversteer when under power. This is therefore one preferred configuration for car enthusiasts, because they can use varying amounts of power to "balance" the car for optimal traction. This is not, however, a recommended technique for the public highway - it is strictly for the racing track.

              By contrast, a front-wheel-drive car can sometimes be changed from an oversteer to an understeer condition by applying power. *Sometimes.* As mentioned above, this is an advanced technique - always try the basic ones first, and learn how your particular vehicle behaves.

              Finally, if you are in a tall vehicle (an SUV, a van or a pickup), you should very much prioritise directional control over everything else. Tall vehicles have an alarming tendency to roll if they get broadside-on, especially if they hit soft ground or an obstacle at that moment. A rollover without a racing roll-cage is *extremely* dangerous.

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              • #8
                I had one of my driving lessons in snow - I had expected the driving school to call and cancel, but my instructors attitude was 'You'll have to drive in it sooner or later, may as well be sooner, and at least I'm here to advise you'

                (Mind you, he did say to me "I've cancelled the one I should have had after you, though - he's lethal!" )
                Engaged to the sweet Mytical He is my Black Dragon (and yes, a good one) strong, protective, the guardian. I am his Silver Dragon, always by his side, shining for him, cherishing him.

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                • #9
                  Another thing to be careful of are the partial 4x4 vehicles. I loved my Escape, which was primarily FWD. When the front wheels slipped, it became a rear wheel biased vehicle when the power coupling sent power that direction. So much fun in the snow and mud, but a bit of a shock if you weren't used to it .
                  But the paint on me is beginning to dry
                  And it's not what I wanted to be
                  The weight on me
                  Is Hanging on to a weary angel - Sister Hazel

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                  • #10
                    I was told not to use the brakes unless you absolutely have to, especially on hills. Most of the time, I can get away with putting the car into second or even first gear, and using the car's weight to slow down. Gotta love those 5-speeds--I can even start off in 2nd gear if I have to. I sometimes do that if I think that I'm going to be spinning my wheels in 1st.

                    One thing I've always done, is 'test' just how much the car will slide. Nothing difficult about this at all. There's a stop sign about half a mile from my house. Straight, level ground near there means I can purposely lock up the brakes, and see how bad the roads are. Then I can adjust things accordingly.
                    Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. --Enzo Ferrari

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                    • #11
                      Quoth Shalom View Post
                      So how do you do this? Is there a driving school that will teach you? G_d knows my own driving instructor never covered it, 23 years ago when I was learning.

                      I've been looking at those Russian crash videos that have been all over YT lately, and it seems hardly anyone knows how: you see a car start fishtailing, just slightly, and next thing you know they're spinning all over the place.

                      (Fellow Blazer owner ('88 S10). It's in the shop now. I'd been noticing the brakes haven't been that great lately. Finally they stopped working altogether and I took it in. One of the rear brake lines was rusted through (other one was replaced a couple years ago for the same thing). Also the rear axle is leaking oil into the brake drums. I guess things wear out after 225000 miles.)
                      What I did to learn how to work a fishtailing vehicle: I was driving, and I had my friend (who knew how to drive these things) in the passenger seat. He said: ok, keep eyes on the road (a big parking lot that was well packed with ice). Then he would yank the e-brake and send the car into a spin. Rear wheel drive, steer OUT of the direction you're swinging. Front wheel drive, steer INTO the direction you're swinging.
                      That was really really fun that night. Got that skill down and have used it.
                      In my heart, in my soul, I'm a woman for rock & roll.
                      She's as fast as slugs on barbituates.

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                      • #12
                        Quoth Chromatix View Post
                        The basic technique is thus:

                        2) Take your feet off the accelerator *and* the brake - especially if heavy braking or acceleration is what caused the problem in the first place. This maximises the traction available for steering. Do not take it out of gear or drop the clutch - that'll only get you into trouble again later when the transmission is suddenly re-engaged. Often, the drag of the engine is sufficient to reduce speed to a more manageable level, and it can be easier and safer to steer around a problem rather than try to stop before it.
                        My 2 cents worth (since the penny has been eliminated in Canada, and everything's now rounded to the nearest multiple of 5 cents, does this mean someone's opinion is now of zero value?):

                        I'd be VERY careful about taking my foot off the accelerator. I can understand "don't take it out of gear" - on an automatic, there's the risk you'd move the selector too far, and on a manual you'd have more control over re-engaging by stepping on the clutch, but NOT the "don't drop the clutch". I'm assuming a gasoline engine, so taking your foot off the accelerator closes the throttle and starts compression braking (actually vacuum braking). The drive wheels ONLY are now experiencing a braking force, which is BAD, especially on a rear-wheel drive vehicle (drive wheels will skid, and the skidding wheels want to lead).

                        With a real transmission, stepping on the clutch means no power or engine braking, so ALL your traction is available for steering, and once you're under control again you can release the clutch GRADUALLY. Some slushboxes will "freewheel" so you don't get engine braking. If yours does engine braking, but your gear selector will RELIABLY switch between neutral and drive without going past either (into reverse or low), shifting to neutral is the next best option. If none of these apply, practice beforehand how much pedal to give it so you're neither generating power nor having drag from engine braking.

                        Going into engine braking (by taking your foot off the accelerator and not disengaging the driveline by stepping on the clutch) goes against what I was taught when I got my CDL - "Under slippery conditions, kill the Jake or it will kill you". For non-truckers, "Jake" refers to an engine brake.
                        Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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                        • #13
                          I recognise what you're talking about there. It is sometimes called "lift-off oversteer".

                          I'm currently missing my copy of Roadcraft, which dates from when rear-wheel drive was much more common than it is today, but I'm pretty sure it said that taking your feet off the pedals was a safe and effective first option, even with manual transmission. I should probably get hold of a more up-to-date version and check whether it still says so.

                          Most cars have sufficiently small engines, and would be in high enough gear at the sorts of speeds you would get into trouble at, to make engine braking effects a net benefit unless you are on an exceptionally slippery surface, such as smooth ice. Even when in a low gear (with manual transmission), engine braking alone is generally insufficient to hold a car's speed on a steep downhill (the type where "ENGAGE LOW GEAR" signs are posted) - but it is enough to assist the friction brakes to avoid the latter overheating.

                          If, that is, you have manual transmission. The vast majority of ordinary cars in the US are automatics. In the UK, manual is not universal but still very common - most driving tests are undertaken in manual cars, because if that is not done, you are not qualified to drive a manual at all.

                          I didn't get as far as my test, because I ran out of money before completing the course (due to circumstances mostly outside my control that I'm *still* rather cross about), but I did get far enough to know just how much engine braking you can get in a small, front-wheel-drive car. It isn't much, but it can occasionally be useful.

                          And my instructor *did* go through the basics of skid recovery, which were basically "take feet off pedals and steer to correct it", very early in the course - essentially as soon as I'd got used to changing gear while under way. To him, it went with the emergency-stop procedure. That is the level of driving instruction you get in the UK - while in Finland, skid-pan sessions are mandatory.

                          Meanwhile, the single best way to deal with smooth ice is not to drive onto it in the first place. If that is impossible, however, you should do your level best to go in a straight line, pointing in the right direction, without either speeding up or slowing down. Anything else is asking for trouble. The correct amount of power to apply is simply the amount that keeps you at the same speed (on a level road).

                          Ice on a hill... just stay away, *far* away. Find another route. Don't even *walk* on it.

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