I'm sorry, could you ask me a question about something that isn't ILLEGAL?

[Imogene]

Sorry for the shouting...

One particular Christmas season day found me standing near the door to the Chesterfield store, half-way greeting customers.
In walks these two airheads, arm in arm.
I ask them "Can I help you?"
The woman asks "Where can I buy mp3s?"
I had to stop my mind from killing itself just from that. "Do you mean Mp3 players, perhaps?"
"No, MP3s."
"Buying those anywhere (at the time) is illegal, not buying them is also illegal... if you have MP3s on your computer, you can be found guilty of a crime by the RIAA."

At the time, the RIAA was still doing those baseless MP3 piracy trials... so, that was my reasoning. Yes, I know now that parts of it aren't true, and may never have been, but at the time, the RIAA was being extremely hard on piracy.

[Legal Eagle]

so at the time in your state buying MP3s was illegal as well as having unpaid for MP3s. yet MP3 players were legal?

does anyone else see a problem here?

[Lehk]

1998

since 1998 emusic.com has sold legal mp3's

also you can't be "found guilty" for having mp3's on your computer, you can be sued for sharing mp3's with others

EDIT:

somehow this i don't think emusic.com is what this SC wanted.

[Crosshair]

*Looks at the 200 GB of MP3's on personal fileserver*

[Imogene]

so at the time in your state buying MP3s was illegal as well as having unpaid for MP3s. yet MP3 players were legal?

does anyone else see a problem here?

Okay, I screwed up in informing that customer about the legalities of MP3s, yes. But still... movie store...? "Of course, let's go to Blockbuster and see if they sell MP3s!" (No, I don't work there)
It was really the absurdity of someone asking if I knew where to buy MP3s that threw me off there.

[Acolyte]

*Looks at the 200 GB of MP3's on personal fileserver*

Oh, a beginner, eh?

[LostMyMind]

I gave up on getting mp3. The only mp3 I have are of CDs I have. Now if I can get off my lazy butt and transfer my vinyl to mp3.

[Crosshair]

Oh, a beginner, eh?

What about the 1,600 GB of MPEG-4 video that I have burned to DVD? (Hint: Buy your media online. Save lota $$$ doing that.)

[LostMyMind]

Crosshair, that's nothing. I'm a big fan of "fan anime" (anime that has not been licensed for U.S. so it's perfectly legal). That's just a bump in the road

[TYFSOK]

Nitpick: Anime fansubs, although generally tolerated, are not legal under international copyright law (Berne). The fact that it's not licensed by an American distributor only means that it's not an American company that can go after you for it. Small Japanese companies generally don't have the time/resources to go after fansub groups in the states, but the big companies like Bandai (who own Gundam) have started to fire off cease-and-desist orders.

One of my friends used to work in a bookstore in Florida. She came upon a customer perusing a copy of High Times magazine, and the customer asked her whether a picture in the magazine looked the same as what was in the baggie he was holding in his other hand. (He was afraid he'd been ripped off.) The manager immediately kicked him out of the store.

[LostMyMind]

Actually, TYFSOK it's perfectly legal because japanese companies that produce these anime depends on the fansub to generate enough interest over seas to pick up a distributor. I've seen links on some of the companies websites linking to a fansub site. While it's true, for most things. At least in the U.S., for anime, the practice has gone on with the industry support for so long that it wouldn't survive the courts if one company try to fight.

Unlike the movie/music distribution websites, fansub community have been very good at not distributing licensed anime. At least the ones I hang around in. And generally are much better at the translation.

I suspect that Bandai doing that for stuff they're licensing which is almost everything now days. While I can understand that, it will come back and bite them in the butt. Fansub is what generate interest which boost sales when it finally gets released in U.S.

[Lehk]

Actually, TYFSOK it's perfectly legal because japanese companies that produce these anime depends on the fansub to generate enough interest over seas to pick up a distributor. I've seen links on some of the companies websites linking to a fansub site. While it's true, for most things. At least in the U.S., for anime, the practice has gone on with the industry support for so long that it wouldn't survive the courts if one company try to fight.

the courts would still side with the companies if they wanted to crack down, copyright is not like trademark where ignoring a violation weakens your protection. the companies won't do it however because fansubs

A) help identify potentially successful series in the US

B) help build a fanbase BEFORE the major outlay of cash required to translate a series

[LostMyMind]

(speaking on U.S. copyright laws) But getting a judge to ignore past behavior is very very hard to do. It's been tried before. You know that "hyperlinking" was copyrighted/patent and the company that owned the "rights" tried to enforced it. They got laughed out of court. Because they let it go for too long it became "public domain" regardless of the copyright/patent.

There is such a thing as "public domain" and "common practice", because it's been "common practice" by the same companies and can be proved. Fansubing been around since the birth of VHS/BETA.

It will be very very hard for any company to "back petal" and say "We won't allow this anymore for the stuff we used to". It's very hard to "retract" permission. All they can do is enforce the policy on new stuff, which I'm sure Bandai is attempting to do. Which will bite them in the behind, like I said before for the same reason you just quoted Lehk.

I'm surprised that they don't work with fansubbers more often, their translation often better than most of the so call "professional" jobs that they pay for.

[TYFSOK]

Actually, TYFSOK it's perfectly legal because japanese companies that produce these anime depends on the fansub to generate enough interest over seas to pick up a distributor. I've seen links on some of the companies websites linking to a fansub site.

Examples, please?

I suspect that Bandai doing that for stuff they're licensing which is almost everything now days. While I can understand that, it will come back and bite them in the butt. Fansub is what generate interest which boost sales when it finally gets released in U.S.

I'm not going to argue with you in this thread, since this is getting way off topic. I'm not condemning the practice, except for those fansubbing groups who continue to translate and release already licensed anime, such as Naruto. And yes, some companies do tolerate the practice for the reasons you mention. However, just because a company for whatever reason doesn't go after the fansub groups doesn't make it legal. No matter how you justify it, it is not legal.

Legally, there is no difference between "fansubs" and "bootlegs". In the eyes of the law, both could be seen as damaging to the market. Regardless of whether or not a title has been technicaly licensed in North America, it is illegal. Lack of enforsement of copyright laws in terms of unlicensed fansubs maybe the result of several different factors. Some companies may believe that the early introduction of the title to North America is beneficial. Others may simply tolerate a "fan-activity" as long as it does not become too damaging to sales. And yet other companies may not want to or be able to invest the time and money necessary to prosecute foreign violations of their copyright.

In the end, regardless of ethics, or motive, fansubs are technicaly illegal.

[LostMyMind]

It's been a long while since I've "gathered" fansub. It will take me tooo long to find those small producers who link fansubs sites in their website.

Anime News Network is a little off (considering who they are, they're alittle bias). WTO (world trade org) TRIPS Agreement (which covers the international copyright/trademark issues since 1995) does not demand that distribution of copyrighted material is a criminal offense unless it is done on a commercial scale. (fansub is not done on a commercial scale, however bootlegging usually is.) Once it's license in U.S., then the U.S. copyright laws come into play and not international ones. So like you said, those groups that are still "fansub" series under licensed can be in major trouble.

There is one major difference (even legally) between "bootlegs" and "fansubs". (with U.S. laws) One can argue that "fansubs" are not "bootlegs" because of the translation, editing, etc... (some fansub groups even do the english dubbing), so it's fan work (as an example: you can dodge copyright laws just by making it your work an parody). And due to non U.S. license, fansubing is generally the only way to get an english version. There is just too many "outs" for anyone to "sue" fansubers of unlicensed anime.

Anyway, this issue is an mute point. Almost every anime made now are licensed for U.S. even if they never get around to releasing it in the U.S. Which is one of the reason I stop getting fansubs.

I'll consider the fansub issue closed, you can have the last word if you wish