These Guys Are Very Close to Being Refused Service

[Dips]

To refresh your memory of our first encounter with these assclowns:

http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...d.php?t=16407&

Things have been going about like that ever since but today they upped the ante.

The called and asked to place an order for 8 updates for state agency. In order to look up the quote I asked them to give me one of the serial numbers. They gave it to me and I used it to pull the quote. Eugene had given it to them; Eugene had also let them know that they had give us the same serial number twice, corrected them and given the the quote for the *7* updates they were ordering.

Since we like to have things in writing (especially with these idiots) I told them to go ahead and fax us the order information and the credit card number. I started to give them our fax number.

They guy (it wasn't Buddy, so I'll call him Nuddy) interupted me to tell me that he wanted to order by phone because the credit card information was very senstive.

I can appreciate that and told him to give me the PO number and the credit card number over the phone for us to keep on file temporarily. He could then fax the PO and I'd call him back to confirm the total (because he was still telling me he was ordering *8* updates) and I felt strongly that giving him the total BEFORE confirming the order was actually correct was a bad idea.

He started giving me an AMEX number. We don't take AMEX. Never have. Never will.

I stopped him and told him this.

Nuddy: Then *we* have a problem. That's all I'm allowed to use.

Me: [What do you mean by "we," Nuddy? As far as I'm concerned only one of us has a problem and it isn't me.] We don't take American Express, nor have we ever taken it.

Nuddy: You must be mistaken. We've used it with you before.

Me: [You are seriously trying the "someone let me do it before" trick? Here? You do realize we are small enough that I can verify that in 5 seconds, right? Laughable.] We have never taken American Express. We aren't even set up to take it.

Nuddy: Then we still have a problem.

Me: [Still saying "we" aren't we?] We take Visa, MasterCard and Discover.

SC: I don't understand. We order from you quite a bit and we couldn't have used those cards. We're only set up to use American Express. Maybe were were able to do it that way before but we got bought out by [large well-known computer manufacturer] a year ago and we have to do it this way now.

Nuddy: [Ah, how you lie. I'm reading a note right now where someone at your company, perhaps you, tried to use American Express, was denied and gave us a MasterCard number. Of course we don't keep those numbers around for security reasons but it obviously went through.] Hold on a moment and I'll check our database for your last order....You last ordered from us six months ago and I see you paid with a MasterCard.

Nuddy: I don't understand. You must be mistaken. If you can't take American Express, we have a big problem.

Me: [Oh, come ON. Even it I weren't looking at PROOF that you're lying, you think I'd believe for one moment that [big well-known computer manufacturer] wouldn't have one MasterCard or Visa on hand to deal with vendors who don't take AMEX. Like, for example, us? What is the big deal? You trying to earn points to get a free trip to Disney World?] Well. We don't take American Express, nor are we even set up to take it. The only cards we take are Visa, MasterCard and Discover.

Nuddy: You know, if you hadn't refused our terms, this wouldn't be an issue.

Me: [Oy, not this shit again. Time to redirect.] I'm sorry I can't take your order right now but you can call us back later when you have another credit card. We are open until 5:00 eastern time.

Nuddy: It would have been nice if Eugene had told me you don't take American Express.

Me: [Oh, man! You're trying to make this my co-worker's fault because he's under some obligation to advertise which cards we *don't* take. Did you even ask him before just ASSuming we'd take it? Not going to work.] We don't take American and never have. If you had asked Eugene, I'm sure he would have told you.

SC: Then we have a problem here.

Nuddy: [Ugh. You keep saying that. Time to change the tune.] Please don't worry. It's really not a problem for us to wait until you call us back with another card number. [heheheh]

SC: OK. I'll get back to you later.

And the call ended shortly thereafter. I checked with Mark who has access to the accounting system about what they last to pay. Sure enough they've been using MasterCard ever since they signed up as resellers and ever since they merged with the large well-known computer manufacturer. When I told him about the conversation he got pretty pissed. Mainly because of the lying and trying to throw Eugene under the bus.

He's about ready to cut them the fuck off and refuse to sell to them if it happens again. But he decided to wait and see what happened when they called back.

They never did. Instead he emailed Eugene the following:

"Our purchasing agent called to place this order with you people and was told you don't take American Express. We need to get this filled right away and need an answer as soon as possible so that we can get this done..."

The rest of it was the order details, which were, of course wrong because he can't update 8 licenses when he only lists 7.

Any bets that Nuddy, the purchasing agent, and the email sender aren't one and the same?

Eugene replied:

"We don't take American Express and never have in the entire time I've worked here, which is 11 years.

We take Visa, MasterCard and Discover...."

He added some more information pointing out that we can't sell 8 updates for 7 licenses, etc.

The reply:

"I guess we'll have to go to [other reseller] to fill this order."

OH NO! Not that! Geuss who the other reseller is going to buy it from?

That's right. Us!

And guess how much of a discount the other reseller is going to give you guys?

That's correct! 0%!

I'm sure your bosses at big name computer manufacturer will be very pleased that you are paying MORE for the same product just so you can get more miles on the company AMEX.

[Sheldonrs]

This guy REALLY needs to learn how to get his "facts" straight.

He also needs to know that when your are buried in a great big pile of shit over your head, don't dig down!

[EricKei]

"And they DON'T take American Express..." Sorry, couldn't resist. We don't either...we used to, until the boss wised up and stopped taking AMEX for the exact same reasons other places have been dropping them like flies for years now...

- Their rates are roughly double what other Merchant Service providers charge to the vendors who accept their cards

- They charge high interest to their cardholders who don't pay the full bill in time

- They demand swift, in-full payment from their cardholders (rather than smaller chunks over time), but they are notoriously slow paying their vendors

- If you're in Europe, don't even let shop workers Know you own one of these, or you will likely get some very nasty looks -- Their payment times (to the vendors) can be measured in MONTHS, not WEEKS, or so I've heard...

They are probably a major part of why we get so many businesses who pay us in checks...Normal people don't use checks much any more, but businesses live and die by them.

[Dips]

We don't take AMEX for all of those reasons plus the fact that the owner has been boycotting them for over 20 years. It's not really a story I can share but he has his reasons and they are not trivial.

And unlike the SCs who threaten to take their business elsewhere, the owner absolutely means it when he says. "You win this time, but do not expect to ever see another dime of my money again."

It's always fun when they approach us trying to sell us on their services or get us to start taking their card. The owner kind of enjoys telling them why they're wasting their time.

[Automan Empire]

Everything EricKei said, plus

>They automatically side with their cardholders who attempt even a blatantly BS chargeback, and they're harder to deal with in such cases

>To emphasize, they really do take at least twice as much of a cut as the other card companies and take longer to fund the merchant.

The only upside is, AMEX cardholders as a general rule have money and readily approve large repair tickets.

[bainsidhe]

The only cards we take are Visa, MasterCard and American Express.

Emphasis mine. Just thought I should point out this typo. Confused me for a minute.

[Dips]

Oh, crap. I went back and fixed it.

Damn!

[Dips]

Update

Today when I came in Mark told me that he'd received a phone call from another of our resellers. Oddly enough it was the not the one the AssClown Company [ACC) had "threatened" to take their business to.

A bit of background about this other reseller:

He is also a software manufacturer who makes another very specialized product that complements ours and often sells our product alongside of his. We have a very long-standing and friendly relationship with this guy who I'm going to call Bob. Bob's company is tinier than ours, which makes bullshitting them all the harder.

So Bob called Mark and told him some guy from ACC had tried to place an order and started playing games and talking in circles. The guy said he was giving Bob his business because we had refused to "work with [him]."

Then he tried to force them to take terms and when, he was turned down, tried to force them to take American Express (which they also don't accept).

Bob found it so bizarre that his first thought was to call Mark and ask him about it since they'd mentioned us and all.

Mark and Bob go waaay back and Mark had told Bob about our first encounter with ACC where they had unknowingly badmouthed Mark to his own wife.

So he reminded Bob of that story and told him these were the same guys. After Bob and Mark stopped chuckling, Bob made the decision to trust his instincts and decline to do business with them unless they prepaid by credit card (Visa or Mastercard; Bob doesn't take Discover )

Mark told me his final remark to Bob was, "These guys have killed any inclination I might have to be flexible with them."

Mark's theory is that ACC's purchasing department hires out-of-work stockbrokers who are used to bullshitting and bullying nice little old ladies and don't know how to do business with, you know, actual businesses.

[Shalom]

One thing about American Express that you have to bear in mind, they started out as a travel agency. Once upon a time, their main business was selling travellers' cheques, which basically involve you the customer giving AmEx an interest-free loan, which is repayable when you finally spend the cheque. The whole reason they started giving out charge cards in the first place was to do something with all the money everyone insisted on giving them. Nowadays, of course, who uses travellers' cheques anymore, so they're struggling. For a long time, they were sending me applications every month begging me to convert to their new credit card (vs. the old charge card), so that they can charge me interest on the balances that I wouldn't run anyway, until I finally told them I wasn't interested.

Downsides from the customers' point of view, besides those already mentioned, is that they charge $75 a year (or whatever it's gone up to by now) for the privilege of carrying the thing in your wallet. Originally it was an exclusive kind of club, you really had to be Somebody to get an AmEx card, but when they gave me one, in my own name, as an impoverished college student with no income, I realized that the qualification for being Somebody was the ability to pay them $75 and nothing else.

On the other hand, they did have a reputation for being more helpful to customers (paid for, no doubt, on the vendors' dime) than the other cards. For example, if you go somewhere and forget your medicine at home, they'd get you a replacement (although speaking as a pharmacist, I can't imagine how they'd do that, unless they also have their own pharmacy), and they were the first to cover the collision damage waiver on car rentals, doubling warrantys on purchased goods, separate lounges in airports, etc. Now that everyone offers these services, there's not much to distinguish their cards from everyone else's.

(I do remember, back when I was a mere stripling, a time when I was traveling early one Monday morning and needed to rent a car at my destination. Sunday night I find out that they won't rent to an under-21 unless I paid by AmEx. So my father calls them up, and says, You guys have been bugging me to sign up for an associate card for years now. OK, I'll do it, but I need it Right Now. They said, no problem, just go down to our office at the airport and we'll issue it on the spot, and that's what happened. I walked out of there at 9:00 PM on a Sunday night with a still-warm AmEx card clutched in my fist. So they were useful once, but all in all I think they've outgrown their usefulness.)

[Andara Bledin]

Oooh, the self-important, "give us terms or accept our AmEx card" jerks.

We've got a customer right this minute that demanded that we give him terms so he could place his order. He's only bought from us once before, on a credit card, and now he's claiming that we should just trust him to get this large (for us) order without paying first and without us getting any information back from his bank or references.

^-.-^

[EricKei]

I always love it when tech support callers don't want to give us card info at all (NO CALL FOR YOU), or want to give it "to the tech" instead of to the person setting up the call to begin with...Certain problems with that:

- The Tech is going to put your info into the same database that the CSR's have access to anyway

- If you won't give us CC info until the call is DONE, none of our techs will even touch the call, myself included

- The best one: Apparently, they'd rather give the technician CC info while the tech is on the line, charging them by the *minute* for their time, while looking thru their wallet or purse or trying to get a manager to hand them a company card...And yes, we have no problem billing for this garbage, we see it as Idiot Tax

==================

We CAN take checks...if you're willing to pre-pay for a support plan, and you FAX it to us so we can do an electronic check. No support til it's processed

Note that we do have a "the first 15 mins of your very first call is free" policy that we recently implemented (it's been working nicely), but we still need a CC in advance for those times when the call DOES go over that limit -- which is almost always.

[Dips]

Update

We honestly figured this would resolve itself one of two ways:

1. ACC would find another reseller and buy it from them, in which case we'd sell it to the other reseller at the reseller price.

2. ACC would come back and buy it from us with a MasterCard as they usually have done, in which case we'd sell it to them at the reseller price.

Neither is what happened.

Instead ACC chose to tattle on us to the state agency and tell them they couldn't fill the order because we refused to accept American Express or give them terms.

I guess they figured the agency would pressure us to accept American Express or give ACC terms.

But that didn't happen.

Instead the agency contacted us and asked us if they could send us a PO and order it directly from us. If we could do that, could we supply a quote?

We were very pleased to tell them we accept POs from state agencies and quote them the retail price.

Since it's not going through a reseller there is no reseller discount. We'll get full price and ACC gets zip.

[Andara Bledin]

Instead ACC chose to tattle on us to the state agency and tell them they couldn't fill the order because we refused to accept American Express or give them terms.

Bwahahahaha!

That's priceless!

They actually were stupid enough to tell their customer that they couldn't work with their supplier and gave them the opportunity to cut out the middleman. Just Brilliant!

^-.-^

[Samaliel]

Way to shoot themselves in the foot!

Added bonus: you didn't even have to refuse them service. They managed to do it themselves. Is there a business equivalent of the Darwin Awards?

[Akasa]

Whoo! Talk about back firing!