Simple, Short, and Sweet.

[Mango]

Client: We are a startup business, will you design our site for free? We will promote your as our designer, as a payment.

Quite the offer. The ones I get don't ever even offer me promotion.

Client: We are starting a software business; will you write code for us for free? After we make $50,000, we'll send you $10,000.

Mango: No.

If someone ever came along with an idea that was actually good, I might do it. But, experience tells me most of them ain't never gonna make $50 let alone $50,000. The odd thing is, the people with the really good ideas have no problem paying up front.

m.

[Racket_Man]

Completely
I don't know how good it is these days, but back when I was beading regularly, fishing line wouldn't hold up over the long run. It'd get brittle and break after a few years or so. It may be better, now, but we always used waxed beading thread. (the thread is dry; you buy wax and apply it yourself)

^-.-^

when I do my own necklaces I use coated stainless steel wire (one has been going now two years) or real sinue (as in animal ligiments/parts/???). I was alsways told that fishing line degrades and floss was just too thin

[Tama]

It's sinew, and I think it's gristle, or....hell, I don't know.

[Ben_Who]

Yeah really, you guys! They'll give you FREE PUBLICITY!!! :-P

Good lord, you wouldn't believe how often this happens with writers. All those clients who want you to knock out some free copy for them in exchange for the honor of having it appear on whatever they're going to stick it on, who have sufficient ego to believe that just having your name associated with their product is payment enough.

I attended a couple of story meetings for a low-budget film about fifteen years ago, where I was eagerly hoping to get on the modest screenwriting and editing staff. When I asked the director what the job paid, she looked at me like I'd slapped her with a fish. Not only did she not have an answer, she seemed offended by the very question. Couldn't I see that this was the opportunity of a lifetime, to have my name associated with a MOVIE?

The movie never got made. I have a feeling it was because the director figured that just saying "movie" would get her enough volunteers to staff and star in the thing.

Love, Who?

[Seshat]

It's sinew, and I think it's gristle, or....hell, I don't know.

Tendons and ligaments.

[Taboo]

Ugh, I hate these calls. I get a lot of them too.

There are very few reasons to even ask someone to do a job for free. If it's a nonprofit group asking, then at least I get it and it's not so rude; I've done work for nonprofits for free or pretty reduced prices before. But regular people or companies? No.

[Jester]

As a magician, I get this a LOT.

"Can you perform at our event? We can't pay you, but we will make sure to promote you."

To be fair, generally (though not always) these are charity fund-raisers for (usually) worthy charities or non-profits. I decide whether or not to do it on a case by case basis. If I feel the organization is one I support, AND I have the time period free (i.e., I don't have to give up PAYING work to do it), then I might do it. Emphasis on "might."

On a couple occasions my friend has bullied me into appearing at a few of these, though to be fair, they are always ones he is appearing at himself or, in rare instances, one he promised to appear at but now can't due to conflicting schedules.

But if I do it, I do it because I want to, not because of any "promotion" I may get. Why? Because this type of promotion rarely, if ever, works. In my 11 years of doing professional magic, the total number of paying shows I have booked from appearing for free at some event numbers 0. The total number of calls or emails even asking about my services that I have received from appearing for free at some event also number 0.

Save your promotion spiel, buddy. Tell me what the organization is, what they do, and why I should consider donating my time and talents to help them. THAT is what I am going to base my decision on....not some mythical promotion I'll get from it.

[Andara Bledin]

I've only worked for free for family, and that only because it was easier to just do it than to put up with the bitching and whining over not having done it. It's like my payment was for them to leave me alone.

But I know my mom & aunt have had to deal with people trying to cadge free work out of them for promotion. Considering what regalia sets actually cost, I can't blame the dancers for trying, but it still gets old, fast.

when I do my own necklaces I use coated stainless steel wire (one has been going now two years) or real sinue (as in animal ligiments/parts/???). I was alsways told that fishing line degrades and floss was just too thin

Mom'n'aunt (my cousin's nickname for them, since they're twins... not sure why he'd refer to my mom as "mom," tho, 'cept that she's more mom-like to him that his own mom ever was) use Tigertail for doing anything that uses larger bead types. It's a coated wire for use in jewelry. They use traditional sinew for their more traditional larger pieces.

^-.-^

[Magpie]

To be fair, generally (though not always) these are charity fund-raisers for (usually) worthy charities or non-profits. I decide whether or not to do it on a case by case basis. If I feel the organization is one I support, AND I have the time period free (i.e., I don't have to give up PAYING work to do it), then I might do it. Emphasis on "might."

i.e. you make a donation to a charity you support.

I was looking into having my sister-in-law do a workshop for my choir (her degree is in performance, but all music students were required to take pedagogical courses so they could actually support themselves). When the choir found out that this would be something they had to PAY for interest dropped dramatically. Although at least they did have some grounds to assume she might be interested in doing it for the experience - she did have to teach for class credit in her vocal ped. course. It's just that she had been teaching private students for three years at that point .

[Dips]

And why would someone who normally charges a fee WANT word getting out that they did something for free in exchange for publicity? The only "business" that kind of publicity is going to attract is the non-paying kind.

No thanks.

[Jester]

i.e. you make a donation to a charity you support.

Donating money is not the only way you can support a charity. You can also donate time or services.

In my case, I cannot always afford to donate what I feel I would like to monetarily to a charity I believe in. But if they are doing a fundraiser with, say, a silent auction, and want to auction off a private magic show by me, I am all for it, as a charity I support gets a donation higher than I might be able to afford, the person making the donation gets something of value for it, and I am only out a little time, first during the actual fundraiser, then again during the private show.

By the way, yes, I have done just that.

And why would someone who normally charges a fee WANT word getting out that they did something for free in exchange for publicity?

To be fair to the fundraisers and charities, they are not trying to promote that someone does something for free; rather, here is a talented person/good service/fantastic artist/whatever who is supporting us--we hope you like what they do, and yes, they are for hire.

That is what they are trying to do in theory.

In reality, however, at least for me, I donate my time....and never get a booking out of it.

[Dips]

Sorry I meant to differentiate between doing something for charity and doing something for a business for free in exchange for "publicity" for us.

My fife and drum corps will do the former for the same reason you do. We want to support a worthy cause and maybe have some fun while doing it. We don't care if we get anything back from it beyond a sincere "thank you." And we don't mind other charities asking as long as they understand the answer may be "no."

The latter is just NOT going to happen. Some friends who have done it (against everyone's advice) found that the only "business" they got out of it was a repeat request from the same guy and he wasn't planning to pay the second time either. Funnily enough they had other plans every date he tried to rebook them.

The were slow learners, but not that slow.

[Exaspera]

As an artist I get a lot of this: "If you donate some art, not only will you get free publicity, but you can also deduct it's cost from your taxes!"

Well no, free publicity-NOT, tax deductible-Not, because I can only deduct the cost of materials. Congress took away deducting the value of the art by artists in the early 70s. If you paid money for art and donated it to say, a museum, then you can deduct what you paid for the art.

I still donate to charities, but only to those I want to.

[Jester]

I agree. If a business wants me to work for free in exchange for "promoting" me, they are going to be very disappointed, and very Jester-less. The only time I might work for a business for free is if they were considering hiring me and wanted to see what I could do for them. That to me is an audition, and I can live with that. Free promotion? Free publicity? Methinks not.

As for charities, sometimes I will do an event for free, sometimes I will not. As I said earlier, it all depends.

Worse to an extent than either of those are people who haggle.

"What are your rates?"
I give them my rates.
"Would you consider [a fraction of my rates]?"
No.
"Not even for a synagogue/church/mosque/execution/debutante ball/prom/nursing home/PTA/Boy Scout troop/middle school/Alcoholics Anonymous meeting/Home for Wayward Nymphomaniacs?"
No. Except the last one. Then HELL yes!

But really, no. Just no. If I offer discounts, *I* offer them. Period. It's the same as when you get a free drink in a bar--you get it because for whatever reason, the bartender or management decided to give you one. You never get one because you ask for it.

And yes, this too has happened to me. Repeatedly. Sometimes repeatedly by the same person.

[RootedPhoenix]

And yes, this too has happened to me. Repeatedly. Sometimes repeatedly by the same person.

That person seems....allergic to learning that you won't do what they want.