Why do I keep getting bounce check fees!?!

[bankworking]

I get a man the other day who wants to know why we keep charging him bounced check fees, because he's already paid them again and again. So, I take a look at his account and see that he has several times paid the fee, bringing his account up to zero. So then the company tries to clear the check again and it bounces again so he gets another fee.

I ask him about the check that is trying to clear. (It is to a payday advance place.) He says that he wrote the check for his daughter to get her through. So... they are trying to cash the check that HE wrote them. He keeps bringing the account up to zero but does not put anything more in, so the check keeps bouncing.

Now, I have run across a lot of confused people concerning checking accounts. I have met the person who somehow thinks that the check cleared the first time they got charged a fee for it. I have met the person who is under the impression that a company can only legally (don't you love that word) try to cash a check you wrote to them two times and then they're out of luck if the check couldn't go through. I have met the person under the impression that we MUST honor their check even if they do not have the funds to cover it, as well as the person who is offended if we DO honor the check as a courtesy if the money is not there (thank goodness we now make them sign a form as to which way they prefer that includes a notice of exactly what circumstances are required for us to cover the check as a courtesy).

I have not yet met the person who believes they must still have money because their checks haven't run out, but I'm waiting for it.

This man is not confused. He knows he wrote the check. He knows he owes them the money and that he is not putting enough money in his account to cover the check. He knows that the company could keep trying to cash the check until they receive payment. He just wants us to stop charging him the fees... just because, I guess.

(By the way, the notes on the account say that he was already told about the option of doing a stop pay. We would charge him for it because he DID write the check. He didn't want to pay for it.)

So he says he's just going to close the account and open a new checking. That can be done and will work to keep any more fees from being charged for that check (until he writes a check on the new account number that he doesn't intend to pay) as soon as he pays the current checking account back to zero, which is negative again.

No, he doesn't want to pay any more fees. He refuses.

That is his choice, but we will not open a new checking for him if a current one is negative.

But he's already paid so many fees.


This might, might trigger my sympathy in some circumstances, because it does suck to have the same fee for the same check that's not even being covered. But 1) the account notes indicate that he already has been told that the check could keep trying to come through and that he chose not to do the stop pay and 2) he has already been through this with OTHER checks/automatic withdrawals and we have already done multiple fee refunds. Far more than we are actually authorized to do, but that's on whoever decided to give into the SC

So, no, I will not be refunding him anything. And according to the very blatant account notes, neither will anyone else anymore.

So he says fine, he will just let the account stay negative.

I think he was disappointed with my lack of caring. The fact is, the account is only negative by our own fees because we did NOT cover the check (or the LA fitness membership payment that also came due while the account was negative...something that he also signed up for, no fraud or canceled service). Paying it positive is required if he wants to keep using his account with us (which is cheaper than any other bank in the area that I know of). So, I let him know if he chooses not to pay within 60 days the checking will be closed and will not be able to be reopened until a minimum of 6 months AFTER it is paid in full. His choice.

[infinitemonkies]

I'm pretty sure that in Canada you can only legally be charged NSF fees once per check written. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've only written one check in the last 15 years that wasn't void (to set up direct deposit or pre-auth'd payments.)

Checks: Just like debit cards, but larger, slower, and less convenient.

[Becks]

Checks: Just like debit cards, but larger, slower, and less convenient.

But useful to me for paying bills and rent.

[DGoddessChardonnay]

But useful to me for paying bills and rent.

Same here. I use checks each month to pay my rent, electric and the water bill. Everything else Mom pays by phone.

Another place I use checks is when I go shopping at the area Farmer's Market b/c the outside vendor stalls aren't set up for credit/debit cards (but the inside retail area does) - it's cash or check. Same with the local What-A-Burger place.

And sometimes you may come across a yard sale where the seller will accept a personal check if it's local.

Checks may seem old fashioned nowadays but they still have their uses.

[Sapphire Silk]

Same here. I use checks each month to pay my rent, electric and the water bill. Everything else Mom pays by phone.

Another place I use checks is when I go shopping at the area Farmer's Market b/c the outside vendor stalls aren't set up for credit/debit cards (but the inside retail area does) - it's cash or check. Same with the local What-A-Burger place.

And sometimes you may come across a yard sale where the seller will accept a personal check if it's local.

Checks may seem old fashioned nowadays but they still have their uses.

Agreed. When I was renting, I paid by check every month. I still occasionally write checks for other reasons; pay the lawn guy, this and that. I'd hate to not be able to write checks. Not every person you deal with has a debit card reader in their pocket.

I don't know if banks can charge NSF fees the way it is described in this post in the US (I'm betting they can), but even if they can't the customer is still sucky because he's made it clear he will not deposit the funds to pay the check he wrote . . . it has nothing to do with the NSF fees. Deadbeat.

[bankworking]

'Fraid in the US the same charge can pretty much keep attempting until the company trying to collect gives up (which they normally do after 2 or 3 tries, because they get charged a fee by their bank for the check bouncing too...lovely system, really) and the bank can charge an NSF fee every single time the charge attempts.

This is part of the reason why banks often offer overdraft courtesy to cover the check and pull the account negative... so the customer only gets one fee. But you have to opt in to that overdraft option, and you have to be someone who will pay back the negative balance within 10 days or the overdraft gets revoked. (Also we have a limitation of 10 cleared checks in any one month or 60 in a year... yes,some people reach those numbers.)

Of course, that system got highly abused in the use of debit cards. After all, unlike a check, a bank can have a system set up to refuse a debit card when it is swiped so that the merchant/business knows the payment is no good right away. So allowing an account to be pulled negative for debit card transactions could trigger insane fees when a person miscalculates their funds, where-as simply refusing the transaction incurs NO fees. I'm glad the government put through the rules that force debit card overdraft to be opted in separately from checks and automatic withdrawal overdraft.


Like I mentioned, I can have a lot of sympathy at times for people getting fees, but not for this particular SC. However I might dislike check cashing places, he GOT money from them for his daughter and now refuses to pay them and also doesn't want to face the result of the bank fees, that he knows exist. So, he can pay his account positive, screw that company over by closing the account and opening a new one with a new number. Nothing we can do to prevent that, and it can sometimes be necessary to get away from a collector who refuses to work with you. Or he can go discover what fees the next bank will charge him, which I can pretty much guarantee will be higher than what my little bank charges.

[hinakiba777]

I used to pay my university fees with checks. But my bank changed my checking account around without sending me new checks with the right account information on them. So, thinking my old checks were okay, I sent a check to my school to pay some registration fees. It bounced, and the university charge me for that. I told them not to cash the other check I sent, but they did. So I got charged two check bouncing fees from the school, and now I have to pay all my fees by direct deposit because I'm banned from paying by check at my university.

[Jester]

(Also we have a limitation of 10 cleared checks in any one month or 60 in a year... yes,some people reach those numbers.)

Seems like a rather low number. 60 in a year is only 5 a month. I know if I paid my bills with checks, I would probably, almost definitely, write more checks than that.

That being said, I only write 1-2 checks a month. One for rent, and one for the electric company, though sometimes I pay them in cash. I WOULD pay the electric company with my check card, but the fuckers want to add a "convenience" fee on for doing that. Doesn't seem all that convenient for me. And since no one else I pay monthly (water company, cable company, cell phone company, car insurance, storage unit, etc.) does that, it has nothing to do with "convenience." It's just a way for them to make more money, with no solid rationale behind it. So I'll continue to pay in cash or with checks.

And I may soon be writing even less checks, as I think that my apartment complex has a setup where I can pay my rent online. That would be great! Actually, I need to set that up with my other bills, too....other than the electric company, of course.

Speaking of checks, fuck me, just realized I STILL owe my buddy Golf Boy for the last two years of fantasy football....need to send him a check, damn it! (See? Checks DO still have a purpose!)

[bankworking]

Seems like a rather low number. 60 in a year is only 5 a month. I know if I paid my bills with checks, I would probably, almost definitely, write more checks than that.

Sorry to miscommunicate. that's not 60 checks allowed to clear total. You can write as many checks as you like, if you have the money in your account for what you write.... that's 60 times in a year that we will pull the account negative to cover a check when the account does not have enough funds to cover it. Assuming the customer opted in for that overdraft coverage.

[Pagan]

That being said, I only write 1-2 checks a month. One for rent, and one for the electric company, though sometimes I pay them in cash. I WOULD pay the electric company with my check card, but the fuckers want to add a "convenience" fee on for doing that.

And I may soon be writing even less checks, as I think that my apartment complex has a setup where I can pay my rent online. That would be great! Actually, I need to set that up with my other bills, too....other than the electric company, of course.

I got the same problem with the gas and electric companies here. Except I'm kind of screwed. I have to pay on-line and pay the "convenience" fee. The offices are only opened Mon-Fri 9am-4/5:30pm....and I work Mon-Fri 9am-5:30pm. And I don't really want to pay 44 cents each to mail something in town. Plus, I don't really trust them not to lose it.

My apartment complex, though, oy. The quit accepting personal checks some time ago, but they had a debit machine in the office. Or, you could get a Western Union Money Gram. Well, now they've done away with that. You can only pay online. And they charge you a "convenience" fee of $19.

"Convenience". This word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[persephone]

that's 60 times in a year that we will pull the account negative to cover a check when the account does not have enough funds to cover it.

You mean to tell me that there are people out there that will, 60 times a year, write a check they did not have the money to cover?

Wow. Just wow. Are people really that bad at managing their money?

I've only written a check that pulled me negative once and that was because the bank cashed a check written on Saturday before running the cash deposit made on Friday. I went in to fight that fee (because it literally pulled my account negative for all of maybe five minutes before they credited Friday's deposit) and was told that it was what it was and they wouldn't do anything.

I closed every account I had with that bank (5 total -- a joint savings, two checkings, and two for the kids) right then and there and went to another bank. A small local one I've been very happy with.

[Shalom]

My apartment complex, though, oy. The quit accepting personal checks some time ago, but they had a debit machine in the office. Or, you could get a Western Union Money Gram. Well, now they've done away with that. You can only pay online. And they charge you a "convenience" fee of $19.

Sounds like you just got a back-door rent increase of $19. If there's no way to pay exactly the amount specified in the lease without having this inconvenience fee tacked on, then they've raised your rent. You might want to check over the exact terms of your lease to see if they're allowed to do this. Probably not worth getting a lawyer over, though, unless you can get all the tenants in on a class-action suit, which isn't very likely.

[laborcat]

My apartment complex, though, oy. The quit accepting personal checks some time ago, but they had a debit machine in the office. Or, you could get a Western Union Money Gram. Well, now they've done away with that. You can only pay online. And they charge you a "convenience" fee of $19.

That's not a convenience fee, that sounds like a scam to get another twenty bucks a months rent from everyone. Especially given no other choice in the matter. What if you didn't have access to pay online, or a bank account?

[Jester]

Sorry to miscommunicate. that's not 60 checks allowed to clear total. You can write as many checks as you like, if you have the money in your account for what you write.... that's 60 times in a year that we will pull the account negative to cover a check when the account does not have enough funds to cover it. Assuming the customer opted in for that overdraft coverage.

Oooooohhhhh..... Okay. That makes a hell of a lot more sense!

"Convenience". This word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think if means.

Nicely done. Best use of that quote by anyone on these forums, myself included, in some time. Bravo!

[bankworking]

You mean to tell me that there are people out there that will, 60 times a year, write a check they did not have the money to cover?

Wow. Just wow. Are people really that bad at managing their money?

Afraid so. I know a customer-couple who make approx $4000 a month who overdraw their account right before EVERY, SINGLE bi-weekly paycheck. Partly from checks and automatic withdrawals, partly from debit card use (they opted IN for allowing the debit card to overdraw instead of just declining at no fee). We tried to see if a small overdraft line of credit would help them, which it has, but they still max the thing out and pay a few fees now and then anyway. And we can't give them a larger line of credit because they have too much credit card debt as is. Still trying to convince them to sit down with our budget/credit counselor, but while they take her card, they never make an appointment.

I've only written a check that pulled me negative once and that was because the bank cashed a check written on Saturday before running the cash deposit made on Friday. I went in to fight that fee (because it literally pulled my account negative for all of maybe five minutes before they credited Friday's deposit) and was told that it was what it was and they wouldn't do anything.

I closed every account I had with that bank (5 total -- a joint savings, two checkings, and two for the kids) right then and there and went to another bank. A small local one I've been very happy with.

That's why I like working for a small bank. Any teller at my bank can do a one-time courtesy refund, especially in a circumstance like yours. The big banks make getting a fee refund a manager-only affair,or even have to send the request up to corporate. It becomes an ordeal.