Loss Prevention Karma

[Mark Healey]

Am I the only one who finds vigilantism and police abuse to be a bad thing? I don't mind a little coproral punishment, but only after a jury says it's ok.

[AriRashkae]

Well, it depends, for me. When it's obvious the guy F'd up (as in the OP's case), and family/friends get ahold of them for a few moments, I'm not going to cry to much for some roughing up and general scaring. And honestly, when it comes to anything sick happening to little kids, I don't give a damn what the law says.

However, if there's a grey area about "did he do it or not?" then I'll be pissed at police and civilian brutality.

however, if I see anyone lay a hand on friend or family of mine, you can be damned sure the cops will be arresting them from the hospital. And if they were male beforehand, good luck saving the "jewels". I'll hold my head up high in court for that.

[Blinky]

Never did the LP gig, but I have done concert securty and armed security before (we're talking accounts that INSIST you are armed). I've had my fair share of dealings with drunks, crack heads and people of that sort. Never had to draw my weapon, thankfully, but my cuffs got a lot of use.

Anytime you are in a position like that, you have to learn rule number one.

WATCH THEIR HANDS!

[Broomjockey]

Am I the only one who finds vigilantism and police abuse to be a bad thing?

Nope. Personally, I'm a little disturbed at some of this stuff. Sure, it seems cut and dried, but what if there was a misunderstanding in some of these cases? Or some other factor involved that couldn't be discerned right away. Some of these stories aren't even involving criminals.

Remember, CS doesn't condone violence. That includes "Helping clumsy people fall down a lot." Clean it up people. Less violence, more karma.

[Difdi]

I can't prove it's a case of shoplifter karma, but...

I once had a guy come into the workshop (note that it is *not* open to the public) wanting to buy size D batteries. I informed him that he was not allowed in back, that the only batteries we sell are out in the storefront, and ushered him that way. Then forgot about it.

A little while later, I simply could not find this one box of parts in the workshop. I asked around, and one guy said he'd left them on the workbench right next to the door. So I looked. No trace of them.

That box was full of used capacitors, quite a few of which were a pretty close match in size to D cell batteries. It's quite common for us to reuse such parts, and it's also quite common for people to dump a used capacitor in that box and forget to discharge it first (more than common, in fact, it's more often than not that you find a charged capacitor in there).

Now, I can't prove that the idiot mistook the box of capacitors for D cell batteries and stole them, but that box simply was not anywhere in the building, including the dumpster out back. So I like to imagine what must have happened to, say, the idiot's boombox when he fitted in four capacitors instead of batteries...

[Gurndigarn]

Now, I can't prove that the idiot mistook the box of capacitors for D cell batteries and stole them, but that box simply was not anywhere in the building, including the dumpster out back. So I like to imagine what must have happened to, say, the idiot's boombox when he fitted in four capacitors instead of batteries...

Or himself... I've managed to discharge more than one capacitor the wrong way...

[Record Store Tough Guy]

We go to stop him and do our usual spiel Mr. Shoplifter looks at me (5'7 140 female), looks at Big Boss (Large Man 6'4 250 of muscle), my boss (6'3 same build, male). Then he looks back at me and punches me in the face.

Had a similar situation at the record store, only no violence was committed. Couple of guys were casing the store for a day or two in advance, and when they came in the third time, StoreManager and AwesomeAssistant positioned themselves in front of the DVD racks, while I followed them around the store. One buggered off quick, but the second, shorter one stayed, with me about three feet from him the whole time.

At this point, I have to say I'm not that big a guy, nor was I that fit at the time. I'm maybe 6' even, at the time about 240 (I've dropped about 20 pounds since then, but since I'm stocky to begin with, I doubt I'll ever see 180 ), but this guy was significantly smaller than me. Maybe chest height. Even untrained I wouldn't have worried if he decided to escalate it into a physical conflict.

Back to the point. He's becoming agitated, obviously, and resorts to belligerence, hoping we'll back down. Does he yell at me? Not at all. He picks StoreManager, who is female, and precisely the wrong person to target, as it has now only fast tracked his ejection from the store. The exchange went something like:

ShadyGuy: If you want me to leave, just tell me to leave! You ain't gotta keep staring at me like that!
SM: I ain't starin'; you ain't that cute.
ShadyGuy: Neither are you, bitch!
SM: And now you can leave.

He initially refused, at which point AwesomeAssistant came over to explain that yes, he did have to leave, which made me tense up, since I thought he was about to slug her. Funny thing ws he had his back to me, so it would have been a pretty sweet tackle if he had. ^_^

He left after we picked up the phone to call the cops.

Lulz.

[PepperElf]

To prevent issues my father had another office transport shoplifter, however I was told that (not advocating violence) that the shoplifter "fell" more than once.

for your dad: Hoo-ha!

Or himself... I've managed to discharge more than one capacitor the wrong way...

you mean tossing them into the shower at some unsuspecting person?
(when i was studying electronics one of my teachers had a few stories along those lines... )

[Naaman]

We had one guy come into the Game shop larging it up on a console purchase, had to go out back for a couple of the items. Apparently the manager of the shop had just got a call from the shopping centre security believing that he had some dodgy credit cards, they'd positioned themselves out of site and were going to grab him as he stepped out.

So, ring it all up and tell him the total, he pulls a stack of CCs out of his pocket and hands me the top one. Check it - females name, swipe it - call this number NOW message. I explain that it's a random security check, not unusual for a large purchase, and it would be cleared up in 2 seconds.

He then starts with the "got a cab waiting, here try this other card", another female name - this get's pointed out to him so he stammers that it must be his wifes card then starts fanning through the stack for one that's just an initial and surname. He found one and handed it over so I checked the signature strip, wadda you know identical. At that point my manager stepped in and suggested that he didn't believe that they were his cards and they would be held, predictably the scrote bolted.

Just as he was getting outside and security were moving in (2 ex policemen and an ex army guy - big lads ) he got knocked over just outside the store by the 2 plainclothes police who'd been following him for the past half hour. Turns out that he'd picked up on suspicion of burglary that morning, questioned then released at which point he swung by his 'stash', grabbed the cards and come 'shopping'

Only downside was that I never got to call the credit card company so missed out on the reward

[Difdi]

you mean tossing them into the shower at some unsuspecting person?
(when i was studying electronics one of my teachers had a few stories along those lines... )

That is NOT a good idea! Yeah, the little tiny ones, you could do that, but larger ones could kill somebody that way.

[Andara Bledin]

Only downside was that I never got to call the credit card company so missed out on the reward

I heard that they don't do rewards any more. Supposedly there was some fishy stuff going on with clerks going after rewards, so they had to stop doing that. Which is a bummer, but not particularly unexptected.

^-.-^

[SpyOne]

Wasn't a shoplifter (and karma wasn't really involved), but this story struck me as very similar.

I work overnights in a convenience store. I start at 10, and my co-worker starts at 11. The night in question, I was working with Arnold, who was about my age and shared many of my interests, so we got along well.

Just after 11 (Arnold was getting himself a coffee and had not yet counted his register), Two gentlemen came in. I'll call them "Junior" and "Dad" since they were father and son, and I am pretty sure they had the same name. Dad called Junior by name, though (not "Junior").

Junior had clearly not been having a good night. At a guess (an educated one), Dad had just picked him up from the emergency room. Junior was also obviously drunk. (Dad was, in my opinion, also drunk, but less obviously so. dad seemed like a career drunk where as Junior went for binge drinking.) They just stopped to get a few things on the way home.
Junior wants beer. Dad doesn't want to buy Junior beer. Dad keeps trying to tell Junior that, since Dad is paying, Junior can't have beer, but Junior keeps ignoring Dad and wandering away towards the beer. When Dad is standing near my register, I quietly tell him, "It's allright: I can't sell him beer anyway."

Junior gets two 22oz bottles of Bud from the cooler and brings them up to the counter. "I'm sorry, but I can't sell you the beer. The law says I can't sell to anybody if I think they've been drinking tonight, and it seems to me that you've already been drinking."
"WHAT? THAT'S BULL****!"

Arnold did not move quickly, he just suddenly was much closer to my register than he had been. He had been at the coffee bar, and now he was right beside Junior.
"Sir, SpyOne has politely explained the law to you, and you've chosen to respond by swearing at him. Now I have to ask you to leave the store." Very calm, very polite.
"I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE...." I turned and grabbed the phone and dialed 911, because that's what the company training says to do if you ask them to leave and they in any way decline.
I turned back to see Junior making a rapid and assisted transition from vertical to horizontal. It seems he had responded to what Arnold had said next (which I missed because I was dialing) by throwing a punch. At this point I need to mention that Arnold had been a varsity wrestler in high school, and then was an MP (Military Police) in the Army for 9 years.
So Junior is on the floor with Arnold behind him and holding him there.

The 911 operator asked if he was "still fighting", to which I replied, "No, he's pretty effectively pinned, but he does keep trying to get up."
First responding cop got his cruiser airborne on the way into the parking lot. Second was about 30 seconds behind him. Supervisor was there within minutes.
Of course, they all knew Arnold (they'd talk while getting coffee, and they kept trying to get him to apply to the department but he had his heart set on being a shcoolteacher).

In the brief moments before the police arrived, Junior began insisting that if he were allowed to get up, he'd leave. Arnold informed him the time for that option had expired when he chose to throw a punch. Junior was continuing to try to break the hold all through this, with Dad yelling at him that he was only making things worse, that he should stop fighting back, and so forth, which might seem helpful in text but in person it seemed like Dad thought that if Junior stopped resisting the Care Bears would come out and hug everyone and life would be fine, rather than accepting that Junior had just moved his life from bad to worse, and all that remained now was how deep the hole would get before he stopped.

Cuffing Junior was not easy. Two officers plus Arnold holding him, and it was not easy, because any time Arnold relaxed his hold in any way the guy would try to escape. Extensive training and 9 years of experience in arresting guys who had formal trainign in hand-to-hand combat, but it was still very difficult to free up one of his hands and only one of his hands.
Still, by the time the supervisor had arrived, they had him cuffed and Arnold could let go. Mind, there were still two officers holding him down, because he kept trying to get up and get away, but they had managed to get the "civilian" out of the picture.

At some point, Junior had bit Arnold on the shoulder.
Arnold and Supervisor talked while the two officers tried to get Junior under control (with verbal assistance from Dad: "Junior, stop this. Stop this. Why won't you stop?"). Arnold started right out with "I didn't do anything retaliatory, just the minimum needed to keep him under control."
"Well, why the hell NOT?"
After some conversation on the topic, "As a Private Citizen, once he throws a punch the gloves come off. You can beat the crap out of him if you'd like. Only we are required to stop once he's no longer a threat to others." I guess they'd trained Arnold a little too well, and he couldn't stop thinking like a cop.


Arnold said later that he'd intentionally attracted the guy's attention to himself, because he was better at dealing with "guys like that" than I was.
Some time after that, Arnold quit working at that store. And shortly after that, his National Guard unit went to Iraq. We talked a few times after he came home, but I guess our friendship was built mostly on working together, and having to see each other 8 hours a day at least 3 days a week.
He should have his teaching degree by now, and I can't help thinking that some day some middle or high school kid is going to take a poke at his teacher and get the surprise of a lifetime.

[Seshat]

MOD HAT ON

(re tossing capacitors at people)

That is NOT a good idea! Yeah, the little tiny ones, you could do that, but larger ones could kill somebody that way.

I would like to reinforce this. CS does not condone violence. A person causing themselves problems - such as the guy who stole the D-cell sized capacitors - is fine. A story about a shoplifter happening to walk into police, or the policeman happening to be related to someone injured by the thief, is fine. In fact, I think they're really funny!

However, some of these posts have implied that it's right to hurt people. I don't think so personally, but more significantly for the Mod Hat stuff, CS has a police that we don't advocate violence.

Please leave out the bits about 'helping clumsy people down stairs' and so forth.

Thank you.

MOD HAT OFF.

[BlackIronCrown]

Am I the only one who finds vigilantism and police abuse to be a bad thing? I don't mind a little coproral punishment, but only after a jury says it's ok.

I can't condone it because I am a person who is going into the legal professions and that's a big no-no.

However, I've got to admit to a visceral glee at some of it. Perhaps it's because I read too much Batman and Punisher. Perhaps it's because I come from a Southern family whose members sometimes say "That person just needs killin'." and get sage head-nods in return. Or maybe, it's because I'm an ass. Much speculation to be made.

[marasbaras]

Personally, I like to see karma come back against people full-force. But, only when it's clear and only in appropriate fashions. In fact, simple "helping" is boring.

Years and years ago (late 70's), I remember reading about a butcher shop getting ripped off for some of it's high-end meats. Hundreds of dollars worth. Only problem: this butcher shop turned out to not exactly pay attention to food safety rules and the would-be gourmet ended up at an ER with some digestive issues.