Returned Check? IT'S A BANK ERROR! rawrgh!

[bean]

Okay, every time I've had "Returned Check" pop up on my register (thankfully only a few times), the customer hasn't taken it out on me. I explain to them that we use an authorization system that other companies use as well, so if they have a check returned with any of them, my register won't accept it. No, there's NOTHING I can do to override it, I'm sorry. I always offer alternatives, including suspending the transaction while they run home to try to find another form of payment. On smaller transactions, we've gone so far as to write down what they owe and have them come back on another day (we can't hold suspended transactions past midnight) to pay. We bend over BACKWARDS for our customers.

None have ever gone off on me. Until today.

I have a guy in my line today, buying a bag of cat food. He asks me how much cash back he can get on a check ($50, which is extremely generous if you ask me) - you can only get cash back if it's been at least 1 month since you wrote your first check with us. I explain that, he says he has a perfect history with us, he's been writing checks with us for years, blah blah blah. But he seems extremely nervous, and is visibly shaking as he's writing the check.

I try to authorize the check... "Returned Check" pops up on my screen. I politely tell him "I'm sorry sir, but I can't take your check" and swing the monitor so he can see it and point at the message on my screen. He FLIPS OUT! Starts yelling about how he spends hundreds every week with us for several years (funny, I've never seen him in my store before), then goes on a tirade about how the "bank accidentally drafted [his] account for a check [his] daughter wrote and it's all the bank's fault!". And of course demands a manager. Last I checked, banks rarely take/put money in the wrong accounts, and when they do, it's a 0.000000001% chance that it's a relative unless the parent is a cosigner, and even then, it's more like a 0.0001% chance.

I get one of our awesome FE supes over, tell her what's going on. Or rather try to, before he starts yelling at her too. Again, a bank error, he already paid the overdraft fee to the bank, why are we victimizing him, etc etc etc.

First off... if we weren't in an age where banks are run by computers, I MIGHT buy the bank error bit. But he was writing a check from the bank I used to use, and in the 5 years I used them, they never screwed up anything related to checks (only related to stopping payment on stolen checks, which is the reason I left them). This is one of the bigger banks (Wachovia). Yeah, computers do screw up occasionally, but if something happens, it's still up to you to fix everything, like it or not, especially if checks have bounced.

Then he starts bitching about how he already paid the NSF fee to the bank, and how it cost him $30. Wait, what? So you never settled the check with our collection company, which charges $35 for returned checks? I ask him if he'd spoken with our check processor.. of course not, he'd settled it with the BANK already! Okay, 2+2 does not = 5.

He winds up storming out of the store yelling at the top of his lungs about how we're trying to rip him off, then storms back in a few minutes later demanding the phone number of our check processor (which I'd been trying to give him for nearly 10 minutes). Then stomps back out quietly.

Is it a bad thing that I had a real bad feeling about this guy the moment I saw him? Also, when he claimed he'd been writing checks with us for years, uhm.... why is it the check you handed me was numbered 1006, when this bank starts you at 1001?

[Andara Bledin]

Last I checked, banks rarely take/put money in the wrong accounts, and when they do, it's a 0.000000001% chance that it's a relative unless the parent is a cosigner, and even then, it's more like a 0.0001% chance.

Then he starts bitching about how he already paid the NSF fee to the bank, and how it cost him $30. Wait, what? So you never settled the check with our collection company, which charges $35 for returned checks? I ask him if he'd spoken with our check processor.. of course not, he'd settled it with the BANK already! Okay, 2+2 does not = 5.

Banks screw up plenty as regards checks and accounts. After all, tellers are as human as the rest of us, and as such cannot be perfect.

My ex once transferred money from his savings account to his checking account, and the phone teller took the money out of my checking account, instead, since his name was on the account. Never mind that the account numbers were totally different. He spent nearly an hour on the phone with them getting it all straightened out. Since it was their error, they reversed all the fees that were incurred over it.

There was another time they did something not too dissimilar. I don't remember the exact situation, but it was another case where the teller got his name and verification info and then proceeded to ignore which account he wanted to work with.

As for the $30 with the bank, he paid an overdraft charge to the bank, since they covered the check and put his account into a negative balance rather than returning the check, so a returned check fee wouldn't apply.

Is it a bad thing that I had a real bad feeling about this guy the moment I saw him? Also, when he claimed he'd been writing checks with us for years, uhm.... why is it the check you handed me was numbered 1006, when this bank starts you at 1001?

Of course, if your gut was screaming "scammer" and he was acting funny, there's a good chance he was trying to pull something.

Who knows, maybe he was trying to take money out of his daughter's account.

^-.-^

[SG15Z]

I've had the RETURNED CHECK ON FILE message come up a couple of times and sometimes even have a THIRD PARTY CHECK ON FILE come up too. We also can't do anything about it. All we can do is given them the company phone number to the department that handles bad checks and talk to them. About 50% of these customers do something similar to what this guy did. THEY FLIP THE FUCK OUT! And usually say they've never had a check bounce with us before even though I told them it could have been with a number of companies.

So yeah I know what you went through. I've had it happen a few times now.

[bean]

As for the $30 with the bank, he paid an overdraft charge to the bank, since they covered the check and put his account into a negative balance rather than returning the check, so a returned check fee wouldn't apply.

If this was the case, we would have never been notified about anything - as far as we care, the check cleared.

Obviously, it didn't clear, because we had him on file for bouncing checks. So he had at LEAST 1 returned check on file with our authorization company. And last I checked, the way we have our authorization setup, they won't deny a check unless the writer has bounced a check within the company (i.e. to my store or other stores with the same name), even though this authorization company handles tons of companies.

I've even managed to wind up on the "DO NOT TAKE CHECKS FROM THIS PERSON" list before, and it was REAL easy to get it take care of. Call up the check auth company, tell them I'm Amy Smith and I think I have a returned check with the Whole, they pull it up, I give them a CC number for the outstanding debt + fees, and I can start writing checks within the hour. I've had 2 checks bounce to my store before (both my own damn fault), and it was real easy to fix. Though I was proactive about it and called the auth company the day I found out the check had bounced both times, the first time they didn't even know it had bounced and asked me to call back a few days later.

[EvilEmpryss]

Walk-all-over-ya is notorious for tacking on fees for anything and then fighting to keep them even if it winds up being their fault. If they received a check that would put the account in a negative balance, they will:

1) Deny the check
2) Charge the NSF Returned Check fee
3) Charge another NSF fee when the first NSF fee puts the account in a negative anyway

A friend had this happen, and I just couldn't believe their gall. They'll refuse to honor a check because there isn't any money in the account, but then charge the person for the refused transaction and then hit them with a fee because there wasn't any money to pay the refused check fee?!?

[Broomjockey]

why is it the check you handed me was numbered 1006, when this bank starts you at 1001?

Wacky. What's the point of starting someone at 1001? Why not 101? 11? 1? 10,001? Hell, start them at 501.

[AtDIelement]

Wacky. What's the point of starting someone at 1001? Why not 101? 11? 1? 10,001? Hell, start them at 501.

Many people request higher starting numbers, due to the fact that many grocery stores won't take checks numbered around 101.

At least that's what they tell us when we order their checks.

[Broomjockey]

Many people request higher starting numbers,

Well, that's sorta my point. You can request whatever starting number you want, or approximately, anyway. So since you can, it doesn't really matter what the number on it is. You know what cheque I'm on right now? 36. Because I started at 1. And I got them back in... 2000ish.

[AtDIelement]

Well, that's sorta my point. You can request whatever starting number you want, or approximately, anyway. So since you can, it doesn't really matter what the number on it is. You know what cheque I'm on right now? 36. Because I started at 1. And I got them back in... 2000ish.

It doesn't really make sense to do anymore... With the way systems work now-a-days, stores get an answer pretty much right away if a check is going to clear or not.

I guess stores still refuse lower number checks... But it doesn't change whether someone with a check number 101 or 1001 is trying to defraud you.

[Gerrinson]

Last I checked, banks rarely take/put money in the wrong accounts, and when they do, it's a 0.000000001% chance that it's a relative unless the parent is a cosigner, and even then, it's more like a 0.0001% chance.

I'm just going to second Andara's remark that banks totally screw up checks all the time.

The bank for <my company> is particularly bad, IMO. I've caught them numerous times cashing out checks against our deposit only accounts, or payroll checks against the non-payroll account, or worst <not my company>'s checks against our checking accounts.

Every time they claim 'Oh, it was just a typo.' Which is reasonable, even, except that many times the checks were written on an account with 11 digit account numbers (checking accounts at this bank) but cashed against 7 digit account numbers (our depository accounts.) When I called them on the fact that not only did they put in 7 digits vs. 11, but even then every single digit was incorrect. When I pushed them to explain that the branch manager stuttered and hung up on me.

I've suggested changing banks, but that is a huge hassle and the owner wants to stay with this bank. *sigh*

But yeah, a bank can really FUBAR check transactions. For a while, it was happening 6 - 7 times a month with just our accounts. I have to admit they've gotten better about it, but still.

[QASlave]

Yes, banks do screw up checking accounts. I used to own my own business and one month I got my cancelled checks and contained therein was an overdraft fee, which was very odd as I kept the account balanced to the penny. So looking through the cancelled checks (yeah, this was a while ago) I find a flowery check in the middle of the basic blue business checks where the bank had glued that little slip of white paper to the bottom of the check with my account information. No big deal, there's a branch just down the street. So, I go in and talk to a personal banker and tell her what the problem is. She's all good and refunds the amount of the check back to my account and asks if that's all. I say, no, you need to refund the overdraft fees too as if that check had not been pullled out of my account, I wouldn't have overdrawn. This Einstein just didn't get it even after I explained why I get it back in kindergarten terms. There was no way in hell she was going to refund it because it was MY fault. I lost it in the middle of the bank lobby. I mean, she had absolutely NO BUSINESS handling money if she couldn't figure this out. A VP came over to calm me down and I explained the situation. He just stared at the banker for about 30 seconds when I had finished. I was refunded the overdraft charges and he put another $100 in my account because of the ordeal. She was in the VP's office getting her butt chewed when I left and I never saw her in that branch again. I moved my account to another bank the following week.

[Andara Bledin]

Though I was proactive about it and called the auth company the day I found out the check had bounced both times, the first time they didn't even know it had bounced and asked me to call back a few days later.

See, that's the difference between you and most SCs. You made the effort to see it straightened out with the right people, but most SCs would rather rail at the people who can do the least about it than get it dealt with properly.

2) Charge the NSF Returned Check fee
3) Charge another NSF fee when the first NSF fee puts the account in a negative anyway

Technically, #2 is for returning the check and #3 is for going into a negative balance. But it's still sucky.

B of A doesn't charge overdraft fees when fees are what overdraft you. At least, they've never done it to me, and they've had more than one opportunity.

Wacky. What's the point of starting someone at 1001? Why not 101? 11? 1? 10,001? Hell, start them at 501.

I think I started mine at 1300 just to be strange. I appear to have written 75 checks in the last 12 years.

For a while, it was happening 6 - 7 times a month with just our accounts. I have to admit they've gotten better about it, but still.

Yegods, and you're still using that bank?!?

The bosslady here wouldn't stand for that. Heck, if there were two cases in the same month, she'd be having a long, hard talk with them about their practices.

^-.-^

[prb]

I once had a few transactions returned NSF. I deposited cheques to my business account and did a transfer (note authorizing it placed in the deposit envelope) from my personal account.

What did they do?
Deposit cheques to business account? Yes
Transfer from personal to business? Yes

What did they screw up?
Instead of holding deposit against business account until it clears, held it against my personal account. Personal account balance was roughly 1/3 amount of deposit to business account. Hit with overdraft fee for account "available balance" being negative.
Then they did the transfer, but sent it through "overnight processing" not instantly, it hit me with a $30 fee again for "overdraft permitted without overdraft protection" even though account balance was around double transfer amount, but available funds negative from other error.

After speaking to a supervisor, they admitted it was their mistake but said that I "need to be more careful and make sure that I don't do transfers between accounts that have no available money until the cheque clears" - to which I pointed out that my only deposits to my personal account have been EFT (ACH I beleive it's called in the US) and such should not be held at all. Then I loved this "um... so we held the deposit on the wrong account then?" *sigh, thats what caused the whole problem*

Which FI (Financial Institution) was this?
Scotiabank, which commonly screws up and I hate but I like the free movie tickets? Nope
Meridian, the medium-sized credit union I use? Nope
It was Harris Bank, when I opened by US account. Harris, which is owned by BMO, one of the few Canadian banks that people like...

[AtDIelement]

It was Harris Bank, when I opened by US account. Harris, which is owned by BMO, one of the few Canadian banks that people like...

I'm from the US. The bank I work for is Canadian owned, but we're the American subsidiary.

I'm not going to name which bank it is, but I can say we had a computer merger a few months ago that people didn't like too much.

[Merriweather]

I'm just going to second Andara's remark that banks totally screw up checks all the time.

And I'll third it.

I once found a deposit in my account that I know I didn't make. I'm honest, I called the bank, they admitted it was some other poor soul's deposit, who knows how much would have screwed up for him if I hadn't called.

Only had bouncing checks once in my life, three in one day. All to stores on base, which is the worst place to bounce a check - high fees, immediate black list for months, and it gets reported to military member's C.O., which could have negative effects on their career, especially if their job entails a high security clearance. Thing was, I had a credit card "attached" to my checking account, so if I wrote a check without funds to cover it, a set amount was charged to my credit card and deposited to cover it. According to the hype, I couldn't bounce a check Turns out, first, someone had written me a check that bounced, which I had trusted enough to write checks against. Second, the day things caught up and I wrote checks on money I thought was there, the computer was down, things had been posted by hand to be entered later, so the automatic transfers from credit card never happened.

Of course, rather than rant at the stores, I went straight to the bank, politely told them it had to be their fault, fix it (with my patented "death glare"), and they did, even making a call to get me off the black list at the base stores within that day (almost unheard of). I actually got an apology, wow.

We once had the Navy direct deposit my husband's paycheck, then the next day, yank almost all of it back out Turns out they decided they'd been overpaying him on his housing allowance for 2 years, and wanted to correct it all at once since he was about to transfer. In spite of the fact that regulations state that in cases of overpayment (which we still don't think it was anyway), they are supposed to work out a payment schedule, and can only take a small percentage each paycheck so as not to cause "undue hardship". And I can't believe it's legal for them to just take money out of our bank account like that Only thing that saved us from hundreds of dollars of fees and bounced checks all over town and a bad credit rating for ages was that it was a tiny little local bank, and they called to alert us when the navy withdrew the money, and we hadn't yet paid bills or bought groceries. For the record, never did manage to get it totally sorted out, and only managed to get back about half the money eventually.

So yeah, banks can screw up things and a person have no idea when a check is refused, and stores can screw up too. But the one person who is totally blameless, and has absolutely no way to fix things, is the poor cashier that's getting yelled at.